Show HN: Long Range E-Bike • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#281

Post by renlo » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

thrashh wrote: post #206

fragmede wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And scooters, electric-scooters, and sit-down electric scooters. And electric wheelchairs, and non-electric wheelchairs and mobility assist carts with handlebars. We also have to delineate between a daydreaming cyclist who's top speed is slow, and a hard-core cyclist with a $3000+ bike that can hit 40 mph in the right conditions. Those cyclists should be banned from using the same paths as the first kind of bicyclist…

Honestly I don’t know if more rules is it. I think better infrastructure that encourages separation is better. I live in a bike (and very e-bike heavy) US city and the rules don’t really get followed too much. And I don’t blame anyone, because while there are inconsiderate people, speed comfortability is really relative. Some of my friends find just being on a bike scary versus my friends who skate through traffic ju…

If you live in NYC like me enforcing the current laws would be a good start. The rules aren't followed because there is zero enforcement.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#282

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

groone wrote: post #163

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists, They cause problems. Maybe not every e-motorcycle rider, but most of them take full advantage of the power to out-accelerate other bikers and double the top speed of everyone around them. Bike paths were design with typical cyclist speeds in mind. It's not uncommon to see a young kid flying down our local bike paths at 40mph or more on a modded e-bike, forc…

two e-bikers flying toward each other at 40mph in opposite directions is the same as one of them crashing at 80mph - only if one of them weighs infinitely more than the other.

crashing into the other* at 80 mph.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#283

Post by bmj » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #192

jacquesm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not in the US.

I don't think you need to defend yourself so vigorously in this thread. But I would say that what you're seeing is distinctly the American experience with e-bikes and bike enforcement. Americans are generally clueless about e-bike laws. This includes police and e-bike owners. American e-bikes are marketed as having throttles, being to bypass traffic at high speeds using the bike lanes and bike paths, and not needing…

Americans are generally clueless about bike laws.

There, fixed that for you.

But they also end up keeping their car driver mentality of me-first and objectifying everything else on the road around them.

This is a great point, and I've observed the same behavior among analog cyclists as well (I've been a regular bike commuter for over 20 years in a city without much cycling infrastructure). Many cycling advocates don't realize that simply getting people on bikes isn't the end goal. It really needs to be about changing the way people move through space among their fellow citizens.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#284

Post by pseudolus » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #183

pcwalton wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. Note that this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In the US e-bikes with throttles are legally classified as Class 2 electric bicycles and are generally legal for use in bicycle infrastructure as long as they don't exceed 20 MPH. FYI, the US classes are as follows:…

NY only allows pedal assist. In NYC they will crack down on electric motorcycles using the paths but ignore the delivery guys.

This appears to be incorrect. In NYC e-bikes with a throttle are permitted, and subject to the same limitations as pedal-assist bikes, as long as they don't exceed 20 mph (~32 km/h). [0].

[0] https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/ebikes-more-engl...

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#285

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #185

mikestew wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that doesn't cause problems...

You realize it is not hard for a cyclist to hit 25-30mph without motor assist, right?

In short bursts or downhill sure? Consistently in a commute? No, that is definitely atypical.

Do you ride bikes or mostly just e-bike?

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#286

Post by orforforof » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #218

orforforof wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to ride a motorcycle, now I have an ebike. They seem equally safe to me, which is to say neither are safe at all if there are other people on the road. The only solution is extremely defensive driving/riding, assume no one (including pedestrians) can see you. This attitude has been embedded deeply in the motorcycle culture and is the best way to all-around responsible riders -- and it needs to be propagated to…

>Also, sound awareness is a myth propagated by Harley riders. This pisses me off so much. I know harley riders that have straight pipes and ride around with ear plugs in to keep from going deaf. Anyone caught over the legal noise limit should have their ride confiscated. It's asshole behavior masquerading as 'safety'.

The only saving grace is at least they know the word 'safety'. I've ridden with such guys too and yes they are assholes, but notably they espouse the same defensive riding opinions of most riders, and they're still alive. That's the key in my opinion, being safe/responsible is not the same as being polite, and I think this gets lost when people focus only on (e)bikers needing to learn good manners and be nice to other road users. (One should do both of course.)

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#287

Post by KingMachiavelli » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #72

TacticalCoder wrote: post #27

We really need a terminology to differentiate better between pedal-assist only e-bikes ("pedelec") and electric motorbikes. A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not. I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all…

The reality is that there is no useful bright-line rule to distinguish between bicycles and motorbikes. Historically, the two have been very distinct, so we haven't needed one. Now, we are starting to see more of the space between the extremes be explored. We do absolutely need good laws and conventions here, for safety and fairness. But i don't think basing them on a classification is the way to write them.

Right, but there's a large question at least in the US as to what & who the bike lanes and infrastructure are for. There are commuters who travel via bike, casual bikers, and then there are also extreme bicyclists that compete.

There are bike lanes that are on normal streets and then there are bike paths that are often shared with pedestrians.

I think there is a solid case that bike lanes adjacent to streets are for commuters. The main argument is that the entire argument for installing bike lanes was to provide an alternative to driving.

The bike paths are a bit different. A lot of places in the US will have paths that ban anything with a 'motor'. In the past this just meant that motorcycles including small [sic] mopeds were banned as well. However, in recent years it isn't unusual for someone to use these paths wile riding a e-bike or e-scooter. IMO the main reason for banning motors was that those vehicles were loud and larger than a bike/scooter.

I think that since it's practical to use a e-bike/e-scooter at the normal non-assisted speeds the proper solution is to just have speed limits in places to protect pedestrians and other bikers.

A bike lane far from a city center could have the same speed limit as the road since the it's going to be mostly commuters using it. A bike lane closer to a university campus might have a speed of 15 or 20mph since those lanes will have a lot more traffic and a greater mixture of e-bikes and regular bikes.

A bike path that connects the bike lane to the bike parking area would be like 15mph. A shared sidewalk/path with pedestrians might have a max speed of I think the only group that might loose out is the pure-bicyclists that are used to using the bike lanes more like a gym so having to share the bike lanes with e-bikes could be an issue. But even then I think very few of them tend to ride during the peak commuter hours.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#288

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

Bootvis wrote: post #257

dheera wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but probability of a crash is probably related to the spread in the velocities of various agents. This is why I often ride my 40 km/h max electric moped on bike paths. Cars don't give me enough following distance so I'm not risking my life there. I also slow down drastically when passing pedal bikers.

If you're exerting yourself you tend to pay attention to what's happening around you. I noticed that folks that go very fast on their two-wheeled vehicle without too much effort get distracted quite easily.

I think it may not be the exertion per se, as much as the perception that something is working hard to give the speed you have.

I have been a very very fast cyclist in the past, and when I'm down on my aero bars and doing 40-50kph under my own power, I'm very aware that I'm (a) working hard (b) going fast. This makes me not want to crash, if only because I'd lose all that hard-earned speed.

But I've seen the same effect in cars too. If I drive a very quiet and "smooth" vehicle on a very smooth road, its way too easy to go substantially beyond the speed limit, because I just don't have the perception of "an engine working hard to propel things forward". Switch a noisy, vibrating vehicle on a rougher road, and I'm much more aware of what is going on and will definitely keep my speed under control.

I haven't driven a Tesla or similar, so I have no idea how their near-silent engine affects this sort of thing. On paper, it seems likely to be bad :)

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#289

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #139

TacticalCoder wrote: post #27

We really need a terminology to differentiate better between pedal-assist only e-bikes ("pedelec") and electric motorbikes. A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not. I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all…

> A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not. That sounds very American. Don’t we have Vespa scooters and mopeds in the USA as well? There are plenty of bike formats between bicycle and motorbikes. In China most e-bikes aren’t pedal assists and no one would ever claim they were car road worthy vehicles, they got bike lanes or the…

I would not feel comfortable bicycling in Chinese "bike lanes", they are basically just separate lanes for the mopeds.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#290

Post by mikestew » Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #185

mikestew wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that doesn't cause problems...

You realize it is not hard for a cyclist to hit 25-30mph without motor assist, right?

At one time I was a Cat 1 (last stop before pro) bicycle racer. Races would typically spend hours at 25mph, so I have a pretty good idea of how hard it is. 30mph on flat ground, unassisted, for any non-trivial length of time? Yeah, damned hard even if you're in shape (and impossible if you're not). 25mph by yourself? It might be "not hard...to hit" 25mph, but to sustain that speed is going to be nearly impossible for the ones I see zooming by on their electric motorcycles. And it's going to be tough workout even for an in-shape cyclist. As another commenter points out, that's over 300 watts. If you can do that for your hour ride to work, go get a race license, you'll do well.