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Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

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Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#161

Post by UncleMeat »

vi-mode wrote: post #91
burlesona wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x less fun? That’s extremely subjective, and depends enormously on what you draw satisfaction from. Leading people can be a lot of fun if you genuinely care about the people you are leading and take joy from empowering and enabling them to grow and succeed.

Yes and no. You can move mountains with good teams, this is great and you will draw satisfaction from. But IDK if you had ever 100+ people in your reporting line for a longer time. Then you knew that it's everything BUT definitely not a lot of fun . It's super hard work and will push you and your mind dangerously to the limit.

Okay. And lots of people don't find grabbing tickets and coding all day to be a lot of fun.

Management is work. But so is coding. Some people prefer one. Some people prefer the other.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#162

Post by contingencies »

_puk wrote: post #25
zerr wrote: post #8

Question to CTOs - are you happy? When I see what particular CTO does day to day, assuming he/she was an engineer before - it seems quite boring. It seems they've sacrificed their engineering side in exchange for a bigger salary.

I found the hardest thing to initially get my head around was going home at the end of the day wondering what I'd achieved. Moving from tangible daily outputs (code etc), to longer term feedback loops can be just as rewarding, you just need to step back slightly. Empowering others to achieve their potential, watching them grow. Watching great products evolve. Understanding and directly influencing tech decisions. Bei…

going home at the end of the day wondering what I'd achieved

Keep a log throughout the day. It helps.

Failing that, use email, issue trackers, repos, purchase orders, inventory logs or other major communications channels / process interfaces to retroactively summarize progress. I currently do this weekly, and use it as input to reporting and planning processes.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#163

Post by crimsonalucard »

rainyMammoth wrote: post #103

In most big companies in Silicon valley, being a manager is not a promotion but rather a parallel track. What I find strange is that most of big cos expect managers to not be technical anymore. There is that weird expectation that the manager should have been technical in the past but is now only used as an enabler for the team.

Even in silicon valley this is largely the minority. Yes it does occur more frequently here but not to any scale worth noting.

It is part of human nature for leads to gain more than the fair share even when the leads are doing disproportionally less work and less skilled work. This has happened across the board for almost every culture past tribal cultures.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#164

Post by vi-mode »

ska wrote: post #159
vi-mode wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but what you write could come from any of the millions of self-help leadership books or blog spam from the net. Random, generic advice. This is too simple for my taste and I am not talking about what effective leadership is. Maybe you talk about a first leadership experience or managing two interns and find this rewarding. Yes this is def fun.

I was replying to something generic, balancing out the negatives a bit. I wasn't really talking about what can be effective, but what can be rewarding . YMMV of course. The only reason I mentioned effective at all is that I don't think it is much fun to be a (knowingly) ineffective leader. There is, in fact, fun to be found at every level. Perhaps not for every person, but that's life.

> There is, in fact, fun to be found at every level

Yes, but we are not on HN for such generic advice.

Early in my career I thought that leadership is the end goal and just great, nobody told me that it's a bit more complex. My initial comment just says, guys, it's not getting easier, it's getting harder, much harder. Now we can do a philosophical debate what is fun, what is rewarding, that challenges are rewarding (YES they are) but it's about the fact the managing people is not easy and shouldn't be underestimated, the reward structure is very different than coding and much more complex than eg a k8s cluster.

I mean just check Glassdoor and how many people there hate their boss. It's so easy to f*ck up an org if you haven't any experience.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#165

Post by vi-mode »

UncleMeat wrote: post #161
vi-mode wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. You can move mountains with good teams, this is great and you will draw satisfaction from. But IDK if you had ever 100+ people in your reporting line for a longer time. Then you knew that it's everything BUT definitely not a lot of fun . It's super hard work and will push you and your mind dangerously to the limit.

Okay. And lots of people don't find grabbing tickets and coding all day to be a lot of fun. Management is work. But so is coding. Some people prefer one. Some people prefer the other.

Um. Most people never managed many other people, how should they know what they prefer?

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#166

Post by vi-mode »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #157
vi-mode wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. You can move mountains with good teams, this is great and you will draw satisfaction from. But IDK if you had ever 100+ people in your reporting line for a longer time. Then you knew that it's everything BUT definitely not a lot of fun . It's super hard work and will push you and your mind dangerously to the limit.

100+ people doesn't scale. This is not how you lead. You need to form a pyramid structure or your leadership won't be effective.

You think I meant 100 direct reports? Without any structure?

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#167

Post by rmrm »

brianmcc wrote: post #32

If anyone is considering moving into engineering management, you'd do well to look not just at the how but the why . If it's for status/salary rather than the change in nature of the work be very careful about making the move. You need to really want to manage and develop people (with all the idiosyncracies that real human beings come with!), and to communicate, co-ordinate, and delegate for a living. Some will love…

I believe the best reason for this is you have looked around and soul searched and believe you are best equipped to put that team in the best position to succeed. Unfortunately, some percentage of people who come to that conclusion are sociopaths. So also don't be a sociopath..

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#168

Post by vi-mode »

com2kid wrote: post #156
vi-mode wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managing people != dealing with people This is the biggest misconception most have you have never led seriously. I like people, I like meeting people for a beer, for pair-programming, to date. Managing people is not about being with people.

> This is the biggest misconception most have you have never led seriously. As a manager, I managed my team, and dealt with a lot of other teams! I was spending a good % of my time coordinating, organizing, and paving the way for my team to do good work. Ranging from ensuring the UI specs that got to them had been well vetted, to negotiating release schedules with other teams. This extends even to engineering decisio…

Tbh, this sounds you like are heavily micromanaging your people because you don't have any task yourself. Did you ever got into 360 feedback? How was the outcome?

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#169

Post by tra3 »

volkk wrote: post #70
supernova87a wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, junior people frequently make the incorrect assumption that entering management is a promotion (partly because we have made the mistake of unthinkingly treating/rewarding it as such). They are often incentivized to seek management roles as part of a "this must be my career path" because of the associated salary. It is a different role, and not merely a coder who tells people what to do. It has a different skill…

Realistically speaking though, manager is an upwards trajectory in the CS world. Most companies don't define the IC track well, and a staff engineer is usually a 10 year veteran whereas a manager path, even if you hate it with a passion is a quick way to get a really high salary with low years of experience. Even more salary once you become director and that's not out of the realm of normal with 5-7 years of exp. I k…

I agree with the overall point you're making.

> Clearly, the way to more money in the long run is the manager path even if you find it horrible.

Gotta break this down. How much more money would one need to make justify having a shitty time 40+ hours a week?

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#170

Post by crimsonalucard »

vi-mode wrote: post #166
crimsonalucard wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100+ people doesn't scale. This is not how you lead. You need to form a pyramid structure or your leadership won't be effective.

You think I meant 100 direct reports? Without any structure?

No. But 100 in your direct line doesn't scale. These people should be invisible to you.

It would be impossible for someone to be CEO of say Google under your logic.

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