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Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

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Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#91

Post by huffer »

lawn wrote: post #89
linsomniac wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a science component to ideas in the shower. I read somewhere that the shower puts you into a similar state to the waking/sleeping transition that people like Einstein tried to ride by sitting and holding something heavy and loud, so if the slipped too far towards sleep they'd drop it and wake themselves up. I don't have any references to where I heard that though. Similar lines, I read about some earlish com…

I think I've heard the same story about sleeping with a ball, but with Edison.

Dali ;)

(or maybe they all did it)

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#92

Post by Zak »

When billing hourly, I only bill when I'm actively working. Actively working can include continuing to think about the project while stepping away to use the bathroom, or "hammock driven development" that doesn't look like work to a casual observer but absolutely is.

It does not include stopping for lunch, spending 15 minutes on HN, or anything similar that definitely isn't work. Those kinds of breaks on the clock seem reasonable to me for daily or weekly billing, but not hourly.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#93

Post by vitaflo »

halpmeh wrote: post #51
vitaflo wrote: post #12

I bill by the hour, not the minute. If I work 10 mins on something and do nothing for the other 50, you are billed an hour. Frankly, this is how most clients have actually wanted it. They think in hours (or days) not some subdivision of them. And yes, thinking about work is the same as doing the work. It's all billable time. As far as your rate, I always bill as high as I can without pushback. Where is that level? Yo…

> I bill by the hour, not the minute. If I work 10 mins on something and do nothing for the other 50, you are billed an hour. Frankly, this is how most clients have actually wanted it. I find it hard to believe anyone wants to over pay for your time by 6x what it's worth. I understand rounding up. But I don't understand working 10 minutes one day, billing for an hour, and then working 10 minutes the next day and bill…

The only way I'd do that is if the client gave me 10 mins of work one day, followed by 10 mins of work the next and nothing else. Otherwise I'd just work 20 mins and bill an hour. More often however they are giving me 40 hours of work per week and I bill 40 hours, even if not every single hour is doing "focused work", and some of it may be downtime. Just like any employee who gets a salary.

I've been a contractor full time for almost 15 years with dozens of different clients big, small and in between. You tend to get a feel for what clients want and/or need and what they don't. Mostly clients just want help getting work done and as long as you're meeting their deadlines and are pleasant to work with, they don't care that how much time you bill (as long as it's not more than 40 hrs per week).

I'm not advocating for taking advantage of clients, but I am advocating for being realistic with running your own business. If you're only billing 10 min stretches you won't be in business for long. Clients understand this. It's just part of doing business.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#94

Post by blurbleblurble »

moralestapia wrote: post #68
blurbleblurble wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thought of going back to upwork gives me nightmares.

If you don't mind me asking, how much where you (GP as well) charging there and for what kind of work?

I didn't get to choose. I felt desperate at the time and took flat rates for jobs that seemed fair, only to find that the requirements kept shifting. The client would refuse to pay unless I did more work. It ended up being like $5/hr in the end. Like I said I felt desperate and needed rent money. It sucked.

Another time I'd put all this work into bidding for a job only to find out they didn't really have any money for the project and were just using the conversation to get feedback on their idea.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#95

Post by WorldMaker »

linsomniac wrote: post #74
lawn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Many of my best ideas have come to me in the shower, on a walk and even in the middle of the night. It's ridiculous to say you should have a stopwatch with you at all times, so daily billing it is. If they don't want to that, just assign 8 hours as a full day and stop worrying of you reach them or not.

There is a science component to ideas in the shower. I read somewhere that the shower puts you into a similar state to the waking/sleeping transition that people like Einstein tried to ride by sitting and holding something heavy and loud, so if the slipped too far towards sleep they'd drop it and wake themselves up. I don't have any references to where I heard that though. Similar lines, I read about some earlish com…

I have also heard it referred to it as "body is busy, mind is open" states. In the shower you've got a routine that keeps your body busy enough doing things, but you generally don't have to devote a lot of mental effort to that routine, most of it is truly muscle memory.

Similarly, things like going for a walk or getting a little exercise can give your body plenty of things to do, but fewer things the mind needs to check on.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#96

Post by vitaflo »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #71
vitaflo wrote: post #12

I bill by the hour, not the minute. If I work 10 mins on something and do nothing for the other 50, you are billed an hour. Frankly, this is how most clients have actually wanted it. They think in hours (or days) not some subdivision of them. And yes, thinking about work is the same as doing the work. It's all billable time. As far as your rate, I always bill as high as I can without pushback. Where is that level? Yo…

> I bill by the hour, not the minute. If I work 10 mins on something and do nothing for the other 50, you are billed an hour. I deal with a lot of contractors. To be clear: If I asked for a single task that takes 5 minutes and they bill me an hour for it, that's 100% fine in my book. Context switching, recording, billing, etc. aren't free. The difference between a 60-minute bill and a 10-minute bill is nothing. Let's…

>If someone is working independently on a project with 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there, 5 minutes a few hours later and billing each as an hour, that's not okay.

Yeah I certainly wasn't advocating that. It's a two way street. Clients tend to understand they're paying for availability as much as anything and contractors understand clients want work done on time and within budget as much as possible. In my experience (having done this for almost 15 years) the best client/contractor relationships are built on respect and trust that both sides are not being taken advantage of. And I've certainly seen my fair share of contractors that try to take advantage of clients or let clients take advantage of them. Both tend to not last long as contractors.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#97

Post by mrkeen »

john-radio wrote: post #33
mrkeen wrote: post #4

I've been in the same boat. My resentment just built up over years, and for what? It just made me seem like an uptight arsehole. And I probably was too. Looking like I'm working used to be a (minor) concern of mine, but I'm more focused if it doesn't enter my mind. Charge for your time. Don't stop the clock for meetings, short breaks, toilet etc. Lunch is debatable. If you go for a short lunch, with your work colleag…

> Looking like I'm working used to be a (minor) concern of mine, but I'm more focused if it doesn't enter my mind. You can stop an intrusive thought from entering your mind just by realizing that it would harm your focus? Is it possible to learn this power?

If you accept that the whole job isn't just interacting with your IDE, then you stop thinking stuff like "Oh no, who's looking at my screen now? Who's gonna find out that I'm on HN?"

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#99

Post by moralestapia »

blurbleblurble wrote: post #94
moralestapia wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind me asking, how much where you (GP as well) charging there and for what kind of work?

I didn't get to choose. I felt desperate at the time and took flat rates for jobs that seemed fair, only to find that the requirements kept shifting. The client would refuse to pay unless I did more work. It ended up being like $5/hr in the end. Like I said I felt desperate and needed rent money. It sucked. Another time I'd put all this work into bidding for a job only to find out they didn't really have any money fo…

Dang, that's WAY too low, sorry you had to go through that and I hope you're in a MUCH better place now.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#100

Post by arikr »

vitaflo wrote: post #12

I bill by the hour, not the minute. If I work 10 mins on something and do nothing for the other 50, you are billed an hour. Frankly, this is how most clients have actually wanted it. They think in hours (or days) not some subdivision of them. And yes, thinking about work is the same as doing the work. It's all billable time. As far as your rate, I always bill as high as I can without pushback. Where is that level? Yo…

Seems surprising to me. Rounding to 15 minutes, sure, but 60 seems surprising. Can more people chime in?
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