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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#771

Post by thargor »

knuthsat wrote: post #608
passerby1 wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm very disappointed at how much money Europe sucks out of my work Are you owner of property like apartment or house there? Just wandering, if that makes a significant personal economic difference for owning it in EU.

I do not own anything substantial. Saving for a house in the capital city would take about 15 years of frugal living as a programmer. I could also take a loan. What I also dislike is the tax prepayments for business owners, which is basically legal theft. The government takes tax in advance and then gives you back the money if you overpaid after about a year. I wouldn't mind this if taxes were low. Imagine being a bu…

If you can back it up with numbers you can request to reduce the prepayments. This request is usually granted.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#772

Post by ginko »

beagle3 wrote: post #758
ginko wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather work with the 'engineer' than the 'hacker'.

I've worked with quite a few people who had "15 years of experience" which would be better described as "one year of experience practiced 15 times". The main thing that such an internship-apprenticeship system guarantees is that the newer generation is well-versed in the ways of the old generation, and will likely have a similar record. In a conservative industry, such as civil engineers building bridges, roads and b…

I didn't refer to the apprenticeship model. I referred to the bullshitting 'hacker' type referring to themselves as a ninja and acting like the work he's doing is beneath them. I wouldn't want to work with that guy.

And it taking 5 years of work experience for you to call yourself an experienced engineer does not mean we'd be stuck with COBOL. It usually takes that long where I work and it's not a bank. You're very likely to use our products right now.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#773

Post by imtringued »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #580
frombody wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marginal tax rates are much higher in Europe at lower levels, so in order to pay someone 50% more, you would have to pay them 100% more for them to get a 50% pay increase to make up for the money taken by taxes (the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality)

>the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality False, this mechanism only prevents income inequality but not wealth inequality as existing wealth is not taxed much in Europe. For example, inheritances, assets and properties are not taxed much in Europe (people scream double taxation if you propose that) but income is taxed substantially so you'll never be able to save enough to catch up to the upper classes who own a…

The problem with inheritance taxes is that there are some crazy people who believe that the tax rate should be 100%.

There is also the big issue that you can just transfer most of the wealth well before death.

If I were to suggest an inheritance tax it would not be significantly higher than 30% but it should have a generous tax exemption for at least $10 million.

However, I personally do believe not that this is an effective solution against wealth inequality because it is a very slow mechanism. It would make more sense to just raise capital gains taxes and decrease dividends taxes so that there is no longer a heavy skew towards wealth building in the first place.

You can still get returns but they have to be paid through a dividend which generally correlates with useful economic activity. You can't just flood the market with cheap money and then use the cheap money to pay dividends if you didn't earn the income in the first place.

Borrowing money doesn't increase the value of a company. It is neutral. If the company is spending that borrowed money on dividends then the company is losing value by exactly the amount that is paid out.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#774

Post by llampx »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #625
overscore wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Ireland, software developers with similar levels of experience earn significantly more than doctors, lawyers, management consultants and most bankers. There's only a tiny number of footballers, celebrities, bankers, and non-software consultants who earn more than the software developers as a class.

Except I wasn't talking about Ireland which has low taxes and high wages for sw devs compared to continental Europe.

I like Germany for an example. The top tax bracket (Spitzensteuersatz) is 42% and is reached when you earn a laughable 57k€ a year, something that will never allow you to afford an apartment in a city for a family. The next higher tax rate is 45% for income above 279k€ a year (Rich tax). Source: https://einkommensteuerrechner.com.de/Steuersatz.php

And then the German finance ministry keeps trying to squeeze blood from the turnip even further every year by dreaming up new taxes, while actively discouraging investing (Olaf, the finance minister, claims not to invest in the stock market and keeps his money in a savings account while at the same time pushing negative interest rates) with Transaction taxes and no tax-advantaged savings account. You could consider that maybe conservative Germany encourages investment in real estate. Nope, you get to pay 6% sales tax and 1% notary fees when you buy a home, with no breaks for first-time home buyers, and you can't write the interest off on your taxes either.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#775

Post by mamon »

nathias wrote: post #538
alkonaut wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say deserve - but since switching jobs is a chore, I’d want to be compensated for it. I don’t think it’s a job that should necessarily make me very rich though. Taking risk should, but just creating value that someone else can produce? There is talent scarcity but not that much scarcity. Other people would do my job at my pay (which I guess ties into the topic!) With the highest salaries perhaps 20-40% highe…

I think there is a comparable amount of value created between you and someone in USA, its just that in Europe managers capture more % of the profit. Its not an issue of scarcity (that makes sens only for the whole playing ground) but of distribution after the scarcity is already priced in.

"Value created by you" is not necessarily dependent on your skills alone. You might be the best Java programmer in the world, but if you get hired to write some boring CRM system for internal use in a bank, then the value you created is limited by how much money said bank wants to burn on internal development efforts.

On the other hand, if you get hired by FAANG and work on the "next big thing", like, say, new operating system for smartphones, then the amount of money that can be made from it is virtually unlimited.

The difference between the US and Europe is mostly that: cool, product-focused jobs are all in America, Europe only has the boring, low-risk, low-reward ones. Europe needs to innovate more, that's it.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#776

Post by Dayshine »

nivenkos wrote: post #617
daleharvey wrote: post #588

Why? I earn ~8x the salary my Mum ever earned, I earn more than anyone I know that I went to school with. I can support myself and my family. I started paying attention to my spending last year and realise around half of it was on stuff that I not only didnt need, but felt better without (tbh it was mostly takeaway food). Buying a house was hard despite my "high" salary, thats ridiculous, but I don't think the soluti…

Do you own a house though? My worry is what happens when we hit ages 50-80 and the ageism in Tech hits us hard. Without a house, retirement is a pipe dream. And houses are incredibly expensive.

In the UK, median household income is ~£30k.

Average intermediate dev salary is something like £30-45k.

Mortgage cost in the most expensive non-London areas (Cambridge/Oxford/Reading/South east) is maybe £1.5k/m.

If your household is one developer and one person working minimum wage (~£17k) you can comfortable afford to cover all your living costs and probably save a little.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#777

Post by oblio »

mamon wrote: post #767
kome wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Changing your job is part of your career growth in-order to expose yourself to new challenges, problems and new environments. A lot of people prefer work to live, while others prefer live to work. Both strategies are perfectly fine.

Yes, but you have to live with the consequences of your life choices. If you just "work to live", then you'll be just an average employee, with average salary. High salaries and other perks are for high performers.

> High salaries and other perks are for high performers.

Or for loud mouths with increased tolerance to risk.

We like to think that the world is much more meritocratic than it is ("just world hypothesis").

And I say this from the camp I'm describing above.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#778

Post by imtringued »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #663
overscore wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment makes the mistake of treating Europe like a country, which it is not. > For example, inheritances, assets and properties are not taxed much in Europe (people scream double taxation if you propose that) but income is taxed substantially so you'll never be able to save enough to catch up to the upper classes who own assets. In Ireland, apart from relatively small tax-free thresholds (€335,000 lifetime from…

>This comment makes the mistake of treating Europe like a country, which it is not. Of course it's not, never said it was but cherry picking countries with larger inheritance tax is also a mistake as you can't choose where you pay your taxes as an EU resident. You pay them where your main residence is. So on the other side of the spectrum you have Austria which has high income tax (because socialism and income equali…

I play an economic simulation game. Every time I see an asset explode in price (inflation) I am thinking "I should get into this industry and produce the stuff that is going up in price". High housing prices are a strong demand signal, meaning more houses should be built. It's really unfortunate that it does not happen enough.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#779

Post by imtringued »

arcticbull wrote: post #357
strombofulous wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40%?! Where do you live? The effective federal income tax at 100k is 22.75%. I don't think any state has a 17.25% effective income tax, certainly not if you only earn 100k.

If you're making 100K in California, your marginal tax rate is: - Federal: 24% - State: 9.3% - FICA: 7.65% (6.2% social security, 1.45% medicare) - SDI: 1% This gets you to 42%. Your employer matches the FICA payments too, so that's closer to 50% of your take-home pay. Once you make enough to pay off the regressive FICA taxes ($142K) you get bumped back down to "just" the mid-high 30% range briefly, until you hit $16…

So California is basically on par with Germany? Yet all I hear from Americans is how our tax rates are high.

A lot of those "taxes" are also not going into the government's budget. They are used to fund specific services exclusively.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#780

Post by rhexs »

kimburgess wrote: post #510
FlyingSnake wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have come to the same realisation. I would rather have a better quality of life than I had in US than to get tons of $$ and live off in a gated community. Great public transport, healthcare, schools, world class Unis, top notch research institutes, and great cultural institutes. The Gemeinschaft approach works here because you need to contribute back to the society in order to reap it's benefits.

100% this. As an outside observer, the US is country with an almost impressive list of societal issues. Inequality aside, it's filled with a hermit-like population with little to no knowledge of the world outside its borders unless they visited it as part of military action, failing power structures, regular school shootings, suicide bombings, riots, an uncontrolled pandemic, insurrection, religious extremists and a…

Recommend you take a break from the news then.
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