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Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

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Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#71

Post by 0xmattf »

aristofun wrote: post #46
0xmattf wrote: post #45

I had an atheist phase when I was like 15. Probably lasted until my early 20s. I blame that on Carl Sagen, Richard Dawkins, et al. I obsessively read science books, and all of these smart people were telling me there isn't a God. They made sense; I believed them. I think around age 20-21, I read Descartes' Meditations on Philosophy, which forced me to evaluate all of my beliefs about existence. Digging further into o…

Yeah it’s funny to compare yourself now when you touched some real thinkers and real wisdom and years ago when you thought charlatans like Dawkins were worth trusting :)

Sure is! It's a bit cringe to think about myself from back then.

We got pretty heavily downvoted here, lol. Really, I don't understand why.

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#72

Post by sjs382 »

grugdev42 wrote: post #42

I don't subscribe to God. Humans have been inventing gods since the beginning of time as a way to control/exploit the masses or soothe the over active mind. There are thousands of dead religions, but this round of current popular religions has hit the nail on the head... right? A truly powerful and kind super being would not allow child abuse, cancer, famine, or rape to happen. Even if there is a god, I don't want to…

> So, for those who believe [...]

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#73

Post by mrkeen »

aristofun wrote: post #69
mrkeen wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arrogance, self-centeredness, "militancy" (laughable when applied to elderly armchair thinkers who call for no-one's death) are all criticisms of humans and have nothing to do with objective reality. But while we're looking at it, > The idea that human beings are the end-all to reality, the highest form of consciousness and most powerful being, just seems hopelessly self-centered to me It is hopelessly self-centered…

> It is hopelessly self-centered to claim that they were made in God's image. Much less self centered than assume we’re developed from a mud on our own, without any external intervention. > It is hopelessly self-centered to claim that He made the world just for us, and put us above all animals. Not a bit more than think that we’re ultimate authority to judge and decide who is above who > It is hopelessly self-centere…

> Much less self centered than assume we’re developed from a mud on our own, without any external intervention.

No. "From mud" is strictly less egocentric than "in God's image" for any possible interpretation.

> Not a bit more than think that we’re ultimate authority to judge and decide who is above who

No such thought necessary.

> Geometrically it is an arbitrary choice of the coordinates system.

It is absolutely not. Have a quick peek into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle. If you put Earth in the middle, then all the other planets move along squiggly lines and do not travel on the clean ellipses prescribed by gravity. Atheists joke about 'why not intelligent falling?' in response to 'intelligent design', which I think is a bit much. But yeah, put us back in geocentrism and you do need something like intelligent falling to fill in the gaps.

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#74

Post by mrkeen »

keiferski wrote: post #70
mrkeen wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arrogance, self-centeredness, "militancy" (laughable when applied to elderly armchair thinkers who call for no-one's death) are all criticisms of humans and have nothing to do with objective reality. But while we're looking at it, > The idea that human beings are the end-all to reality, the highest form of consciousness and most powerful being, just seems hopelessly self-centered to me It is hopelessly self-centered…

I really don't get the point of comments like this. You didn't engage with anything I wrote in a meaningful way and instead just used the opportunity to blather on about your own opinion. Just like the top voted commenter in this topic, who clearly didn't read the initial question. Reminder to self: never discuss religion on HN, you won't get any intelligent answers.

I will try harder to connect the dots more explicitly.

Do you think an idea being 'self-centered' has any bearing on whether that idea is true or false?

What are the typical atheist arguments from Dawkins, etc.?

Why are they not actual thinkers?

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#75

Post by sbayg »

mrkeen wrote: post #64
keiferski wrote: post #49

Don't know if I believe in God in the typical sense of the word (specifically the traditional idea of omnipotence), but I do think it's quite logical to assume there is some form of higher power. The idea that human beings are the end-all to reality, the highest form of consciousness and most powerful being, just seems hopelessly self-centered to me. When did this happen? Probably in college when I studied philosophy…

Arrogance, self-centeredness, "militancy" (laughable when applied to elderly armchair thinkers who call for no-one's death) are all criticisms of humans and have nothing to do with objective reality. But while we're looking at it, > The idea that human beings are the end-all to reality, the highest form of consciousness and most powerful being, just seems hopelessly self-centered to me It is hopelessly self-centered…

> a growth on a wet rock that's nowhere in particular in space

Atheist don’t think life is special, let alone miraculous is a good reason to reject atheism. A better way to live is to see everything as special, worthy of deeper inspection because the glitter of divinity sparkles everywhere one looks for it. Think of how that orientation drove so much of our scientific discoveries. Is it really bad to think of oneself as a little bit special (yet prone to sin from which we are too animalistic to extricate ourselves from). Perhaps you are the one who is too self aggrandizing in your sense of certainty about what is alas unknowable in the typical sense?

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#76

Post by sbayg »

I outgrew atheism but for me it’s been a process. I think this ongoing “wrestling with God” is an essential feature. Atheism for me was a stopping of thought, a conclusion or an end. Belief in a creator, for me, raises so many questions, it is a beginning or an opening of thought. Life is much better having moved on from the simpler view, and that evidence reinforces the value of that shift for me.

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#77

Post by Nicholas_C »

dcminter wrote: post #67
Nicholas_C wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Q: How can you tell if someone is an atheist? A: Don’t worry, they’ll tell you.

I do see, mostly from Americans, self introductions of the form "I'm so and so... and I love Jesus" in contexts that have nothing to do with religion. I've never had anyone bring up their atheism or agnosticism in that way in a non-religious context.

I've lived/traveled all over the Bible belt and I can't remember that ever happening even once. I'm sure it does happen but never seen it.

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#78

Post by keiferski »

mrkeen wrote: post #74
keiferski wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't get the point of comments like this. You didn't engage with anything I wrote in a meaningful way and instead just used the opportunity to blather on about your own opinion. Just like the top voted commenter in this topic, who clearly didn't read the initial question. Reminder to self: never discuss religion on HN, you won't get any intelligent answers.

I will try harder to connect the dots more explicitly. Do you think an idea being 'self-centered' has any bearing on whether that idea is true or false? What are the typical atheist arguments from Dawkins, etc.? Why are they not actual thinkers?

1. Maybe I was unclear. To me the idea that human beings are somehow the most intelligent life form in existence, is only an idea that can come from a very self-obsessed mind. This is a common attitude for people, as a society species wide thing. So I find the typical atheist attitude toward “higher powers” to be very lacking. Agnosticism is a much more rational position.

2 and 3: I’m not going to answer these for you, just google it for 5 minutes or ask an LLM. No one with knowledge of the philosophy of religion takes the New Atheists very seriously. They were pop culture writers with mostly bad or oversimplified arguments.

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#79

Post by murm »

mrkeen wrote: post #63
murm wrote: post #52

I ate mushrooms 10 years ago and it made me realize how little humans really know about existence, despite how confidently some people assert that there's no god. I didn't directly communicate with god or anything, but in some way the experience broadened my mind to be less dismissive about the idea of a higher power.

The fact that the brain can trip should be taken as evidence that, when the supernatural happens, a better explanation is someone's brain is tripping, and the supernatural isn't actually happening.

Yes, but couldn't you then apply the same materialistic approach also to pain for example and explain it away as just some brain activity? Yet people live as if the experience of pain is real and modify their behaviour to avoid it. No one thinks their own pain isn't real.

But also yes, psychotic people too feel like they are really being followed by CIA which an outside observer can recognize as a delusion.

But why should this even be either-or? Why couldn't it be that the brain is tripping and the supernatural is also happening? I think mushrooms probably can trigger the brain into a state that can happen other ways too (fasting, long meditations, experiences of supreme beauty, the overview effect, near-death experiences etc.) These brain states are probably what religions are on about and why they have even appeared in the first place.

My experience was that the brain state I was in was very unusual and made me more humbly appreciate more the mystery of all being and in that state disproving the existence of god through logical arguments seemed like such a silly human endeavour, as if a termite is trying to gnaw on a temple. Like, "Sure, go ahead?" (and I'm not bashing logic, I too rely on it every day)

Re: Ask HN: When and why did you start believing in God?

#80

Post by b0rtb0rt »

dcminter wrote: post #68
b0rtb0rt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what created the universe?

Why is "God did it" a better answer than "it just happened" ? If you prefer the "God did it" you then have to account for where God came from and end up with a set of answers that could just as easily be applied to the universe itself. Believe what you want, but this isn't some kind of gotcha.

what’s the difference between “god did it” and “it just happened”? you’re just hand waving over the question of “how did it just happen?”. matter just magically appeared?
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