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Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

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Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#71
I do have a cheat code for making money in Europe. Freelance as a SAP consultant.

The learning curve may be a few years, and its soul crushingly boring. But once you're qualified and competent at it, you just put on a suit and take your trolley from one large business to the other, whilst charging 200€+ per hour. You don't have to actually implement anything, only advise.

It's like the modern COBOL. Every sizable business runs on SAP, and it's complicated. The demand for high-end consultants in this space has been there for 20 years and won't go away.

As old man I will express caution that money isn't everything. Personally, I'd prefer digging holes into the ground in the streaming rain as a job over anything SAP.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care always gets brought up but salaries are higher in Canada than a lot of European cities.

There's a lot of variation in Europe, but IME the salaries in Western Europe are comparable to Canadian ones. Also, the Canadian healthcare is not exactly stellar. For some reason, dental care in Canada is "only cosmetic" and not covered by insurance.

I haven't had a job in Canada were dental wasn't at least 75% covered by my employer. In the UK I never had a job that covered dental.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#73
post #71

I do have a cheat code for making money in Europe. Freelance as a SAP consultant. The learning curve may be a few years, and its soul crushingly boring. But once you're qualified and competent at it, you just put on a suit and take your trolley from one large business to the other, whilst charging 200€+ per hour. You don't have to actually implement anything, only advise. It's like the modern COBOL. Every sizable bus…

LOL, Office Space.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#74

In my opinion, part-time work is much more common in the EU. Also, there is a cultural difference. If I can earn what I need to finance my lifestyle with 15 hours per week, why work more? The drive to become rich is a lot less strong in the EU because you can have health insurance and retirement money even when you're not extraordinarily wealthy. Also, living costs are quite low. 2000€ net per month is enough to feed…

I’d take this one step further: the whole system in Europe is designed to keep everyone at “average” wages across the board.

Due to the (extremely steep) progressive tax system, there’s a lot of friction in (serious) pay raises. Why give someone a raise of €1,000/month when at the end of the day they will end up with less than half that?

Or why would you keep working full-time if by working 4 days you only give up 10% of net pay? Your ‘hourly wage’ actually goes up.

And it doesn’t stop with progressive taxation: a huge number of expenses are income-linked. So with your net pay increase of €500/month, you also start paying a lot more for child care or loose other benefits.

Instead, you could start working 4 out of 5 days: 1 day less to pay for childcare, and the cost per day of the remaining 4 days also goes down because your pre-tax income went down by 20% (all while net income only reduced by 10%)).

So in the end I don’t think people are getting paid less in Europe simply because taxes are higher or because there are more general benefits, but rather because there are actual systemic incentives to getting paid less. And I think this really affects typical upper-average income, where realistic incremental pay raises just aren’t really worth it for a lot of people. There’s a hurdle to reach a much higher level of income (let’s say top 10% bracket) where the increase in expenses and loss of benefits becomes insignificant (or you’ve already reached maximum levels of income-linked expenses) compared to the massively higher income level.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of variation in Europe, but IME the salaries in Western Europe are comparable to Canadian ones. Also, the Canadian healthcare is not exactly stellar. For some reason, dental care in Canada is "only cosmetic" and not covered by insurance.

I haven't had a job in Canada were dental wasn't at least 75% covered by my employer. In the UK I never had a job that covered dental.

I had 1500 CAD per year allowance for dental care (IT) which was enough for basic care.

But most of my friends (non-IT) didn't have any such employer coverage.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#76

It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder…

I'm not super sure it's that. What's stopping companies like Spotify? It's not like they were just trying to address the Swedish market.

And note carefully, from Wikipedia:

> In April 2016, Ek and Lorentzon wrote an open letter to Swedish politicians demanding action in three areas that they claimed hindered the company's ability to recruit top talent as Spotify grows, including access to flexible housing, better education in the programming and development fields, and stock options. Ek and Lorentzon wrote that to continue competing in a global economy, politicians needed to respond with new policies, or else thousands of Spotify jobs would be moved from Sweden to the United States.

The "and stock options" seems hugely overlooked but is not at all trivial. It seems to be one of the most important pressures on US companies to push all developer salaries way, way up.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#77

first of all, 57k in NL is definitly NOT top segment. thats mid level. top segment for seniors is more like 80k to 95k. thats a huge difference already! also mind that those online figures not necessarily include 8% vacation money, 13th month, 25-30 days pto and pension fund (up to 100%, usually 50%) source: i had this salary myself after 6 yrs and subsequently hired a lot of people in this segment for roughly that a…

That's not what I find when looking at various pay comparison websites. Do you have any references to support those numbers?

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#78
There is some self selection. Some of the Europeans who want to make more maybe moving to the us. Same with india being 5-10x lower salaries. Tangentially I offered to double an engineers salary in india to quit his job and work for me remotely. And he (an hn user) turned me down, saying he wasn’t ready… now, I don’t know if he had severe impostor syndrome or I am the impostor. it’s like when x-bezos calls someone to offer them y million dollars and they hang up on her.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#79

I earn less money, but I work 32 hours a week, have 6 weeks paid vacation, and a 5 minute commute. It's also really hard to "translate" money via exchange rates. Cost of living matters a lot. If food and housing is cheap, then the money goes a lot longer. That's also the sort of goods that the arbitrage pressure of international trade struggles to even out. Maybe if WFH becomes a big international thing, but I don't…

I’m 100% wfh in the US and it’s a double edged sword. I brought my daughter to the dentist yesterday at 2pm which would not have worked if I was at the office. But if I take a day and I have some calls I always get the “can you make those work on your day off?” guilt trips. I only get 15 days and probably 3-5 I get away with 0 work. Rest of them is 1-4 hours. Again it’s not terrible but it just makes it impossible to…

Are you actually living in the US or in EU and working for an EU company?

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#80
post #77

first of all, 57k in NL is definitly NOT top segment. thats mid level. top segment for seniors is more like 80k to 95k. thats a huge difference already! also mind that those online figures not necessarily include 8% vacation money, 13th month, 25-30 days pto and pension fund (up to 100%, usually 50%) source: i had this salary myself after 6 yrs and subsequently hired a lot of people in this segment for roughly that a…

That's not what I find when looking at various pay comparison websites. Do you have any references to support those numbers?

pay comparision websites suck. never found them reliable.

i dont have sources but as I said. i was hired for that cash and already hired multiple people for that amount myself during my tenure as Director at a boutique consultancy

edit: check this: https://www.codeguild.nl/software-engineering-vacatures/?spe...

first result. java dev 93.5k

second: 95k + 5% bonus

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