Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#71

Post by throwaway9283i » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:57 PM UTC

leethargo wrote: post #69

helge5 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrt to social security stuff, one should proactively run a "Statusfeststellungsverfahren" - you fill out some forms and the authorities will tell you how they declare you. That puts you on a safer side. Also there _is_ an "avoiding the cost of social security". If they consider you properly self employed and independent, you do not pay gov social security stuff, but you need to insure yourself (using private insuranc…

Thanks for the hint about Statusfeststellungsverfahren, I will research that. I had previously filled the questionaire from Finanzamt and they had accepted my status of "freiberuflich" w.r.t. software dev. The possibility to use private insurance depends on having some minimum amount of income. Also, I currently use the option to use public insurance (voluntarily) so that I can easily switch back to it once I become…

Depending on your health records, staying voluntarily in the public insurance is the best thing you can do.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#72

Post by movingbritde » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 8:41 PM UTC

I'm in a similar situation, except I'm a British citizen looking to move to Germany. I already have a sole director, UK limited company set up for contracting / freelancing.

I've head rumours of German contractors using UK limited companies instead of the local GmbH/UG entities. How does that work generally? Are people setting themselves up as German employees of the UK entity and collecting a salary? Or is there something I'm missing here?

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#73

Post by k__ » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 8:56 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #34

jotm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't you actually be paying more taxes as a one person company? Why does it matter if the company has only one client and one employee if everything is paid properly?

It's about the public tax fund. You have to pay into it of you're employed and make below ~4800€ (before taxes) a month. It's rather much % of your income, so you can save rather much by not paying it.

-tax +pension sorry

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#74

Post by helge5 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 11:01 PM UTC

throwaway9283i wrote: post #62

helge5 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a small clarification: You are still "selbständig" (self-employed) if you do a "Gewerbe". The thing you don't get easily is a so called "Freiberuf", particularly if you don't have an engineering degree (though I managed to get it). Tax wise it is actually almost easier to do non-EU business than doing business in Europe, because there are no VAT issues involved (and there are no tariffs on those things). You jus…

Can you go more into detail regarding the tax stuff? Who pays the VAT then?

Puh, I'm not a tax consultant, ask yours how and why that is. But you don't put VAT on off-EU invoices (not even within different EU countries I think). It's just net.

I think the reasoning is that a VAT - value _added tax_ - requires that the other party also pays VAT (you only pay the difference, the "value add"). Which simply doesn't happen if you are outside your own country. In "regular" cases this is compensated by tariffs, but there are none for consulting/dev AFAIK.

But again: ask you tax consultant :-)

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#75

Post by helge5 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

leethargo wrote: post #69

helge5 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrt to social security stuff, one should proactively run a "Statusfeststellungsverfahren" - you fill out some forms and the authorities will tell you how they declare you. That puts you on a safer side. Also there _is_ an "avoiding the cost of social security". If they consider you properly self employed and independent, you do not pay gov social security stuff, but you need to insure yourself (using private insuranc…

Thanks for the hint about Statusfeststellungsverfahren, I will research that. I had previously filled the questionaire from Finanzamt and they had accepted my status of "freiberuflich" w.r.t. software dev. The possibility to use private insurance depends on having some minimum amount of income. Also, I currently use the option to use public insurance (voluntarily) so that I can easily switch back to it once I become…

"Statusfeststellungsverfahren" is an (gov) insurance thing (the process is run by the "Rentenversicherung" (the pension fund)), it has (I think, not a lawyer) nothing to do with the Finanzamt (German IRS). That is an entirely different thing.

> The possibility to use private insurance depends on having some minimum amount of income.

This is incorrect. If you are self-employed you are off the state records. You can yourself choose to insure yourself using the gov insurances ("Freiwilligenversicherung"). But that is _usually_ an awfully bad deal (though ethically the right thing to do and I personally hope they eventually do the "Bürgerversicherung", which will level the terms for everyone).

The minimum income thing is only for dependent(regular)-employees. They are forced to be in the gov-insurance unless they exceed a certain income. If they do, they can choose (which often makes sense because private insurance has way better benefits and is way cheaper if you (consistently) have a high income (I don't know the current rate, 14% for the employee and 12% for the employer [and both if you are self-employed?])).

> Also, I currently use the option to use public insurance (voluntarily) so that I can easily switch back to it once I become employed again in the future.

They have to take you back unless you are 50+ I think (google the details). If you are dependently employed you _have to_ be in the gov insurance unless you exceed the minimum income. Buckle up, it's the law! Because of that many privately insured people therefore often seek to get back into regular employment if they get closer to 50, to properly exploit the system.

> Apparently, there is some risk of not being accepted by the public insurers after one had quit.

This is age specific. Generally at least the "AOK" (kinda the fallback gov insurance company) has to always take you. In fact I think even private insurances _have to_ take you since quite a few years now - it's awfully expensive, but you are never supposed to be uninsured in Germany.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#76

Post by helge5 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

throwaway9283i wrote: post #71

leethargo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the hint about Statusfeststellungsverfahren, I will research that. I had previously filled the questionaire from Finanzamt and they had accepted my status of "freiberuflich" w.r.t. software dev. The possibility to use private insurance depends on having some minimum amount of income. Also, I currently use the option to use public insurance (voluntarily) so that I can easily switch back to it once I become…

Depending on your health records, staying voluntarily in the public insurance is the best thing you can do.

That is the way more ethical thing, but it is almost never the best thing from either a financial and certainly not from a health perspective _if_ you exceed a certain income (and the barrier here is pretty low unless you have many kids, which depending on your income distribution you may have to privately insure separately).

If you are self-employed, the public insurance is really nothing more but another (rather unattractive) insurance company you can choose from.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#77

Post by helge5 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 11:29 PM UTC

throwaway9283i wrote: post #54

helge5 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrt to social security stuff, one should proactively run a "Statusfeststellungsverfahren" - you fill out some forms and the authorities will tell you how they declare you. That puts you on a safer side. Also there _is_ an "avoiding the cost of social security". If they consider you properly self employed and independent, you do not pay gov social security stuff, but you need to insure yourself (using private insuranc…

I do not want to save any money in taxes, health insurance, social insurance or pension fund. I am actually happy to pay all this. Nevertheless I heard horror stories even by doing so you are at risk they will f..k you anyway after a Prüfung (audit) within the first five years or so. I even want to stay in the public health insurance (freiwillig gesetzlich versichert). I actually do not want to benefit from being sel…

I can feel your pain, but that is really not what this is about. It is all about the rules/laws :-)

Your's is an pretty edgy case. All people I know which have been employed dependently by a foreign company, have been employed by a local subsidiary (and I can understand that your foreign employer won't open one just for you).

Just a wild guess: If you are above the minimum income for dependent-employees allowed to be privately ensured, I assume all should be good. But I would still do the "status feststellungsverfahren", or maybe just call them. I think they have a hotline.

(In general many answers/threads here may not be really relevant for you as they are focused around self-employment. What you really want is to be a "dependently-employee-in-a-foreign-company". I have no idea how that works, maybe just do make an appointment w/ a work-lawyer).

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#78

Post by throwaway9283i » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

helge5 wrote: post #76

throwaway9283i wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on your health records, staying voluntarily in the public insurance is the best thing you can do.

That is the way more ethical thing, but it is almost never the best thing from either a financial and certainly not from a health perspective _if_ you exceed a certain income (and the barrier here is pretty low unless you have many kids, which depending on your income distribution you may have to privately insure separately). If you are self-employed, the public insurance is really nothing more but another (rather un…

A lot of people in IT knowing how to negotiate well will probably cross the border. I would, at least.

I agree it doesn't make sense from a financial perspective generally but it does depending on your health records/situation. I, for example, have a chronic disease which implicates monthly medication which is crazy expensive. I could enter a private insurance (because I have a Anwartschaft, thank god I kept this from since forever) but the monthly rate will drive to insane amounts when I'm getting older and/or adding the fact of kids (Familienversicherung).

Going back to public insurance after being in private insurance is highly problematic and probably even impossible without playing grey-zone games if you don't want to lower your salary dramatically below the income border for multiple years.

Disclaimer: my knowledge is based on internet research, I am not an expert on this and might be wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#79

Post by throwaway9283i » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 11:50 PM UTC

movingbritde wrote: post #72

I'm in a similar situation, except I'm a British citizen looking to move to Germany. I already have a sole director, UK limited company set up for contracting / freelancing. I've head rumours of German contractors using UK limited companies instead of the local GmbH/UG entities. How does that work generally? Are people setting themselves up as German employees of the UK entity and collecting a salary? Or is there som…

Without being able to contribute to your question: in hindsight of Brexit (UK will leave the EU) this might not be possible (as easy?) as in the past anymore.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#80

Post by helge5 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 11:50 PM UTC

movingbritde wrote: post #72

I'm in a similar situation, except I'm a British citizen looking to move to Germany. I already have a sole director, UK limited company set up for contracting / freelancing. I've head rumours of German contractors using UK limited companies instead of the local GmbH/UG entities. How does that work generally? Are people setting themselves up as German employees of the UK entity and collecting a salary? Or is there som…

I _think_ those things are disconnected. If you stay more than 6 month + 1 days in Germany, I think it becomes your primary tax country and you fall into the German social system (for good or bad). But really, just guesswork. Ask someone :-)

If you are contracting for multiple clients, you should probably be cool. The thing which is problematic is if you only work for a single client (the mentioned "Scheinselbstständigkeit" - your claim to be self employed, but you really aren't). In this case Germany really just wants that you are regularly employed by that client company. (the reason is that this was commonly abused to force cheap labour into self employments, so that the employers also don't have to pay gov insurances and work around a whole lot of other laws ...)