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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#621
post #196

I 100% notice when ppl are slacking - especially at the levels you mentioned. I'm a team lead - it's to much of a pain in the ass to fire people so it's easier to just keep them and give them the minimal salary increase possible. If someone is from a protected class 100% forget about firing them but I realize not all companies are like mine but I suspect a lot are.

Do you give feedback to these employees? Because if you work 10 hours a week and yet every review the feedback is "good" with no indication of any need for improvement I don't see why they should try doing more.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, compensation is based on what the company has to pay . There are some other rules, like they have to (overall) pay less than they make from the output. But in general, a company never pays their employees more than they think they have to. 10x programmers don't make 10x the pay. They might make slightly more, but not even 2x what a 1x programmer (of the same level, no comparing seniors to juniors) makes at…

If a company is doing its job correctly, a 10x engineer should not be leveled the same as a 1x engineer. (It's more complicated than that but, y'know.)

Yeah, but you have to go up quite a few levels to make 10x the pay. E.g., a Google L5 makes (ballpark) $360k. An L8 makes (ballpark) $1M. That's only 3x higher, and you probably need a lot more than 10x impact to go L5 -> L8. An L4 makes $270k, still within ~1/4 of an L8. L3s are paid almost 200k, which is still ~1/5 of an L8.

I don't know what L9s or 10s are paid; it's probably highly variable and the total number are probably a handful.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#624
post #589

I run into people like you in the field sometimes. Unless you're actively hindering my efforts at delivering something, I ignore you. If you're assigned a critical task, and you block us, I'll bring it up to stakeholders privately to ensure they understand what you're doing. Sometimes this results in you being fired, most of the time, you just get assigned less important work. I find people like you unpleasant to be…

I enjoy my work, but I also don't get a whole lot of it. So I make mountains out of molehills.

As for what I do? I work in basically a state run monopoly that is so big and has such large teams that managers oftentimes think you're awesome if nobody has anything negative to say.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I go to widgetco and purchase a widget for $100, but it only costs them $50 to make that widget (including all salaries, marketing etc), what do we call that? That's right profit. They provided me the thing I wanted for a price I agreed to, and they did so in a way that generated some extra $ for them. Why is it Fraud then when a worker is asked to provide KPIs in exchange for $salary, and meets them in less than…

This is the wrong analogy - this is not a situation where there is transparent exchange of good or services. The OP indicated lying literally in the title indicating there is a lack of transparency and oversight, probably at a systematic level. So adjust the analogy: You are buying 'Medical Grade' widgets for $100 a pop for the last 5 years for your projects. Turns out, the Widgets you were buying were cheaply made a…

Aren't you assuming that code quality suffers? I don't think that we can assume that in regards to code on this topic. OP's company appears to happily agree that the product is on-spec.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#626
post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

I don't know if you've lived through an industry downturn but that's a risk you might want to hedge against. Software/tech has had so much growth that it hasn't really had a bad year yet. Long term, even the dot com crash or the 2008 recession weren't super impactful. My guess is, you are doing enough and aren't enough of a troublemaker that your boss cares to do anything about it, but you're not fooling anyone eithe…

I think this an underrated aspect of career planning, i.e. building a career that makes you a recession-proof hire.

The OP said they’d been in the industry for 2 decades, so they may have got into the workforce at the end of the dot com bubble. It wasn’t pretty for people who had been in the industry for a 5-10 years. Many forced career changes, big salary cuts, early retirements, depending on the person’s reputation, CV, and skills.

I don’t think the next contraction will be nearly as globalized as the dot com contraction, but it’s worth assessing whether your niche or specialty is prone to that kind of lull in the hype cycle.

In a contraction, the interview charades of big tech are replaced by street cred, because nobody can afford to hire deadwood. It’s brutal to be mid-career with no street cred in a recession, and one should try to avoid it.

I’m not saying one should avoid work in web3, autonomous driving or whatever, but it’s prudent to have an escape hatch just in case.

Be known as a hard worker, smart, and genial, and invest in developing skills that legitimately create value for any company, and you’ll be OK. It can be tempting to coast, but it’s not an effective strategy if your industry i has bearish downturns during your career.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#627
> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them?

Kind of, I definitely know a few. But generally those profiles are not incompetent, and can support the team in times of pressure. Also there's periods in my life where I'm definitely not so productive, so it's nice to know I can slow down as well without having to worry. The main issue is that it slows down the pace of the whole team — not just their work, but the energy in the group. This can be frustrating for team members who like to get stuff done and an energising, motivating atmosphere.

Side note: when you think about the salaries of profiles like that for the amount of code/functionalities/effort produced, it also makes you realise how much a side project is worth "cost-wise" — easily a few hundred thousands dollars. I do think these kinds of profiles deserve their salaries overall, the company definitely agrees to pay those high salaries for what is produced. The ones much more productive should be be paid accordingly though, which is rarely reflected.

>Do I have imposter syndrome and I am actually a 10x developer whose laziness makes them a 1x developer?

You're probably pretty good and with good potential if you were putting in the effort and practice. But you'll never know, and excellence is generally indissociable from passion and commitment. In my opinion you're not an imposter but not that far from it either. More engagement is expected basically, but at the same time companies have so much trouble recruiting that they are still happy with what you're producing.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#628
I see this all the times and I've done my fair share of it.

This is happening because nobody care in your company.

The bigger the company, the more the layers of middle managers, the more the pocket of productivity where someone can hide and do little. Join a startup and they founders in person will overwork you to the bone.

Having seen a few organisations I have a personal scale that goes from solo founder to government of a country: the more you get closer to a government, the more you see resources being wasted (of money, of time, of talent).

When I've been on the manager side, I punished a few underperforming engineers (which led to team change and then firing, as per company policy) but I could have very well avoided the discussion completely; my boss had no idea about my performance or about the performance of my teams. Even if he asked I could have easily come up with 10 different excuses about why productivity is so low. I had no incentives to get those people fired; I didn't get a raise; the probability of my company's stock being worth more because of that may have increased by some uber minuscule amount (mid companies tend to obsess about increasing returns while making sure no-one in the company has a chance to innovate, to experiment, to fail and try again; employees input is a tiny percentage of making a profit on equity).

The lack of accountability starts at the board of directors. Not a lot of people really care deeply about a company that sits on their fund's portfolio. Sometimes, even when they care, they tend to be too polite to underperforming managers. That lack of accountability trickle down through managers up to individual contributors. Every X years, after the company, unsurprisingly, doesn't deliver the expected returns the board decides to go into nazi mode, cut everything down for a bit and then go back to not caring.

On top of this horrible corporate lifecycle, the work done by engineers can be clouded pretty easily so evaluating poor performance vs poor conditions is not easy.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, compensation is based on what the company has to pay . There are some other rules, like they have to (overall) pay less than they make from the output. But in general, a company never pays their employees more than they think they have to. 10x programmers don't make 10x the pay. They might make slightly more, but not even 2x what a 1x programmer (of the same level, no comparing seniors to juniors) makes at…

best solution is to stay a 1x developer then devote most of your energy to sidegigs and stock investing

yes. or better be a 10x for 4 hours a week. i feel like 10x is about flow not stress, so doing 10x might be easier than 1x ironically.

there is a disconnect about how companies mildly or jot so mildly “gaslight” employees into burning all of their energy on the job.

Its more cultural than profit-seeking. The profit seeker would want to maximise the effectiveness of the worker, by for example thinking hard about what work is worth doing.

The biggest waste i see is cancelled projects that could have easily been pre-cancelled. The next is features that are hardly used. Followed by technical debt and its impact on velocity.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#630
Though I agree with most part (in terms of no of real productive hours), someone in your team is probably doing more to balance it for you. The reason you can get away by "bullshitting" is because someone somewhere is putting in effort to make your bullshit appetizing.
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