Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom. • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#61

Post by vaksel » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 6:55 PM UTC

brl wrote: post #57

vaksel wrote: post #7

Simple...sue him. Dude I'm in your exact situation...hired someone to do a project, and he is now a year late. I gave the guy concession after concession just to get him to finish...hell I cut about 70% of the features just to have him finish quicker. And told him...as long as he finish quickly I'd waive the late fees. You can't work with these people...even after all my concessions the guy still gave me major attitu…

> Simple...sue him. That's probably not going to help the OP achieve what he really wants, getting his software finished. The programmer he hired agreed to do the work for about $8 / hour. Not sure a lawsuit can possibly make sense from an economic perspective since people that work for near minimum wage don't have a lot of extra cash to cough up for monetary damages.

Neither will waiting for the current guy to finish. If someone took his project seriously they'd be done in a couple of weeks, couple of months tops. What he needs to do is look back at his guy's performance in the last couple of months, and see if that level would be enough to get him over the finish line.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#62

Post by Hexstream » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:08 PM UTC

pixpox3 wrote: post #34

mannicken wrote: post #28

Have you paid anything yet? Don't. Drop him. Here are two good reasons to drop him: 1. You are wasting your time -- I don't think he'll give you anything, or you'll end up spending so much money that profits are unreasonable. 2. Even if he does, what guarantee is there that there is no "surprise" hidden in the code? I have seen freelancers do that when they're disappointed in the buyer. Find another guy and learn fro…

I paid him more than 2000 dollars of the fee already unfortunately. I've learnt a lot from this, specifically that even really good coders (or any professional) can be very good at what they do but still be completely unreasonable and willing to screw you.

I doubt he's a really good coder. A really good coder would rather get the job done and get paid quickly rather than bitching and whining and making a big mess for months on end. And if the challenge was way above his skill level he'd say so instead of dragging the project for several months.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#63

Post by huhtenberg » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:08 PM UTC

andr wrote: post #37

huhtenberg wrote: post #29

A reality check for you. First, $2500 covers 50 hours of work. Do you think your app can be written in that timeframe ? Hardly. So this amount is not a compensation, it's more of a marginally attractive retainer. Second, the 10% share is a joke. The reason being is that if there is a written app, then 10% commission gets you a simple e-com distribution (shopping cart, invoicing, payment processing). The 30% commissio…

Nonsense. Once the developer accepts a $2500 offer he is obliged to do his part of the deal. Not to mention that $2500 can be a lot of money for a lot of people. The 10% share of profits is a sign of good will on behalf of OP. It was not part of the original agreement and in that question is ridiculous to complain that it is too small. The developer is not a cofounder, he is a freelancer. I'm sorry but contractual ob…

Which part of what I said is a "nonsense" exactly ?

I merely pointed out that ($2500 + 10% of profits) is a patently bad deal for the developer and it explains the sour state of affairs that they both ended up with.

The fact that the developer is not upholding his end of a deal is another matter. I haven't commented on it.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#64

Post by scorpioxy » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:09 PM UTC

dkubb wrote: post #38

huhtenberg wrote: post #29

A reality check for you. First, $2500 covers 50 hours of work. Do you think your app can be written in that timeframe ? Hardly. So this amount is not a compensation, it's more of a marginally attractive retainer. Second, the 10% share is a joke. The reason being is that if there is a written app, then 10% commission gets you a simple e-com distribution (shopping cart, invoicing, payment processing). The 30% commissio…

$2500 for 50 hours of work works out to $50 p/hour. I don't know what the fair market rate is for freelance client side app dev, but that sounds a bit low. Most web designers I know bill higher than that. For $50 an hour I'd either expect the developer to be really junior, or experienced but totally unaware of their own value. Also, I agree that providing a percentage of the possible profits is not a very good motiva…

Offtopic but seriously? $50/hr is low? I've had people tell me that my rate is too high when i was charging $20/hr. I find that a lot of people treat freelancers with a lot of prejudice because of their geographical location..

To the OP. The programmer is black-mailing you. That never ends well. If you can, just scratch the project and start over.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#65

Post by ScottWhigham » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:12 PM UTC

menloparkbum wrote: post #40

Give up and start over with someone else. $2500 for 2 months of work comes out to 8 dollars an hour. This isn't a good wage for a programmer anywhere and should have been your first hint that this wasn't going to work out.

This is potentially very dangerous advice and I would not be so quick to accept it were I the OP. The question is, "Since the original programmer is almost finished with the entire thing, if you fire him before the contract is finished and start over, what will he do with the code?"

Depending on the contract structure, he might be free to sell it on his own, give/sell it to a competitor, or release it on the web for free. Meanwhile, poor OP is now six months behind schedule and has to start over.

Sorry but I don't know how you can be so black and white about the issue without us knowing more information. If OP followed this advice without thinking through the problem, he could be much, much worse off. It could be that you are right but, without more info about the contract, we don't know.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#66

Post by gojomo » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:15 PM UTC

allenbrunson wrote: post #9

froo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

okay, first, you can't use html in an hn post for formatting. you should go back and add two-return-key paragraph breaks, so your post will be readable. I had the exact same thing happen to me the other day when trying to submit a poll, it popped up tags all over the place, so I'm sure it's not the guys fault. I had to go back and edit the thread to make it readable after someone pointed it out to me.

oh. huh, didn't know that. by the way, by putting a couple of blank spaces at the beginning of the quote, your comment is causing the page width to get stretched out.

froo may be using a browser where that isn't evident.

Until PG fixes, you can fix this yourself client-side with a bookmarklet or a greasemonkey script. See ...

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=437002

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#67

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:31 PM UTC

menloparkbum wrote: post #53

hhm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a salary or for freelance? I think salary hours are typically 0.5 * freelance hours, is that right? So inside a company, $1250 is less than a week's worth of work for anyone good?

Freelance. Salary-wise, $1250 a week is about $62K per year which anyone with a pulse can get in silicon valley.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#68

Post by gojomo » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:35 PM UTC

It's a bad working relationship, you have to end it. The only question is how to salvage something.

If you've paid for work so far, and your contract gave you rights to the source code, demand the source code. You could hand that to another developer and it might be of some use.

If he won't provide it, and especially if he's local, sue in small claims court for your money back.

If you have a running version without source, you could rebid this elsewhere and use both your previous correspondences and the working version itself as a new spec to accelerate the new work.

If it's truly $2K worth of work by an ornery contractor, it can likely be reproduced for about the same cost. But it's also possible that he was way undercharging you and that's why he's become ornery.

If you have a working code delivery but not source, Java code can be decompiled to recover somewhat useful source code. However, unless there's some fancy custom algorithms/graphics/etc. in your app, a basic 'Swing desktop app' might be easier for a new contractor to build from scratch in their style than try to reuse something from an unreliable coder. Only go the decompilation route if you are confident of your rights to the work (because it was clearly a work-for-hire with you receiving the rights under your written contract, and you haven't orally modified that contract in your pleadings with the developer).

Rentacoder and other sites really help prevent a lot of these problems by nudging people -- especially those new to software development -- into doing things the right way... having a clear contract, planning for likely delays, staging things, getting multiple bids for comparison, etc.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#69

Post by visitor4rmindia » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:35 PM UTC

indiejade wrote: post #8

I've hired a coder to create me a desktop app using JAVA swing that I planned to sell. You might be asking for advice in the wrong place. If you want to make money selling desktop apps, the advice you'll likely get from this crowd is "learn how to do it yourself." Otherwise, give your coder at least a 50 percent interest in all of the proceeds from this app. Given what you tell us of his reaction, it sounds like you…

I'm sorry but this is bad advice. Coding isn't a special skill that can't/shouldn't be hired.

He hired a guy to write code. That guy seems to be jerking him around. The way forward should be to dump the guy and get someone else. There are a lot of software engineers out there. Reneging on a deal isn't ok just because you know Java and your client doesn't.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#70

Post by spkthed » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 7:36 PM UTC

vaksel wrote: post #59

Yoric wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't. Restart from scratch. If you continue with this programmer, he'll never support your code anyway.

Thats what I'm saying. I'm not saying sue him to get him to finish, I'm saying sue him to recover the money.

You're assuming several things:

1. That he has money to pay. 2. That he will pay the money he's ordered to pay. 3. That he will pay that money in a timely fashion.

Bottom-line, this person is not going to give you a product that you're happy with and definitely not on the timeframe you need. Go ahead and file a small-claims case against the person but count the money gone.

There's lots of good advice on here about what to do, raise the cash again, hire a good programmer using the advice given above and below this and move on. Don't waste any more time pleading, threatening, or talking to this guy. Sue him and put it in the past, count the money gone. If you ever get any of it back, apply it to something different, server costs, etc.

Honestly? $2,500 is a very, very cheap price to pay for everything you've learned here. Learn from it and how to avoid this situation in the future (plan out all contingencies ON PAPER with the person ahead of time.)