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Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

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Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#61
post #29

[dead]

Because a currency that fluctuates in value +/- 20% every week is exactly what people want in a payments system. Plus the exchange fees for Bitcoin is way higher than what regular payments processors charge.

I hate Bitcoin as much as the next person but it's not really fair to criticise a technology that's potentially cool on the grounds that it doesn't have enough adoption. If it had the stability of entire countries behind it, it wouldn't fluctuate this much and even if it did, if everything's in that currency then you don't notice it in daily life either.

The problem I have with it, is that the technology is inefficient at solving the problem as compared to a central authority issuing currency. Something using e.g. blind signatures sounds really cool but the tech was ahead of its time (paper stems from 1983) and by now it doesn't sound cool and new anymore. Example implementation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#62
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never needed any of these things in the EEA When I wasn't happy with a product, I either used the warranty or (mandatory) 14-day return option depending on the reason why the product wasn't conforming expectations Perhaps warranty extras are more relevant outside of the EU where warranty laws may be less strict? How even does a payment system do warranty, it knows nothing of the product? And what is price protectio…

I have a longer reply in a sibling post ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41276479 ), but basically, yeah... in the US we have very few consumer protections, so credit cards offer some of that in lieu of a functional government. They also have much better protections against fraud (if someone steals your credit card and buys something with it, you're not liable... the bank will pay you back). If you get scammed…

Getting scammed is a problem but it's not super common and the banks have a policy of refunding the money. Society bears the cost that way, and has the incentive to prevent and educate, rather than that it ruins some individual's life

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#63

I can tell you it isn't difficult to build something like they have. The issue is more likely to get banks onboard to issue cards/payment instruments for your unknown payment network which has no terminals, the barrier to entry is very high.

I work in fintech specifically in payments and have for a few years now, including working on payment rails. I am going to give my best tl;dr based on my experience and knowledge.

From my point of view it isn’t really about partner banks. It’s about the rails, nearly 100% about the rails (IE the network). You’d only need one partner bank to move funds, which is how CashApp does it for example, but payment networks (the rails) is a different beast all together and I’ll do my best to outline this.

The bigger problem is going to be the rails. Visa and Mastercard as a model wouldn’t make as much sense for a new system to start with, rather you would want to be a closed loop system like American Express and Discover, because it’s extremely unlikely you’re going to be lowering any fees if you have to transit on Mastercard or Visa, but this means you have to control the entire on ramp, from issuing cards to operating the network. This as time has gone on has gotten very complicated from a regulatory standpoint and much of it for good reason, not to mention the high entry cost and long tail time it will take to see adoption. In fact you would likely run up against the reason why fees are so high, which I will get into in a minute. This is all the reasons why Capital One is trying to buy Discover, because they want to lower their fees for their cards so they can net more profit per transaction with lower per transaction costs, but this won’t translate into anything being cheaper for merchants (which is what we are really talking about) because of one really big draw of credit cards: Rewards[0]

The biggest driver of higher over time transaction costs isn’t the operation of the network. Which does cost money and it is unlikely operating any network would be zero cost or near zero cost, but rewards balloon the cost to merchants because of how things are structured and incentivized.

In a very simplistic breakdown it goes like this: if I am a card issuer like a bank, American Express or Discover and offer rewards, someone has to pay for that. Now you think the sky high interest rates would be enough but, while they in part cover the costs of the bank and they make lots of money on this, the truth is rewards are funded in large part (and sometimes solely) by kick backs on fees paid by merchants to the network operators, e.g. Visa, who may charge 3% they may only keep 0.50% of that and pass the rest back to the issuer as a kick back. This is negotiated by a number of means and the percentages are all different based on a bunch of factors but this is essentially how it works. This in part is done to incentive more transactions over the card network, particularly as a credit transaction which isn’t fee regulated, where as debit cards have a legal limit, which averages out to ~7 cents per transaction, significantly lower than credit cards.

Now this has created a system of kickbacks and rewards. This benefits three parties: Banks, who get tons of profits off of the high interest on credit cards plus the kickbacks fund rewards. Savvy (and usually wealthy) consumers, who can effectively get the “tax” in higher prices this has observed to cause over time as fees rise paid back to them as rewards at no cost (full paid monthly balances) and the network operators.

This leaves merchants to bare the real burden, as well as consumers who haven’t or otherwise unable to take advantage of reward programs to offset costs, namely the poor and lower middle class folks.

Now knowing this, how would you build up a 3 sided network (the operator, the consumer and a bank) that upends this model, which lowers fees for merchants? Assuming you go with a closed loop model (likely the best move) you are left with a few options: lower rewards (or have none, realistically) and you won’t gain consumers. Lower the operator take which has risks the ability for operations to be profitable and regulatory compliant, or you need to fund in large part by merchant fees greater than 1%, which will inch you close to what you see today to begin with, or you may think to use “differential pricing” but in some instances this may enter into a questionable gray area legally to have differential pricing based on which network / payment method the customer uses and it can be burdensome to merchants, which in part is why Winco decided to very publicly disclose that they only take debit cards, for example. Finally, you could forgo all this and simply rely on credit card interest revenue but that is a surprisingly volatile proposition as you have defaults to consider, refunds, reward costs, security and regulatory compliance etc.

All the while you need to build out a network from scratch by working with merchants, which means you would have very slow adoption and users of the network wouldn’t be able to blindly use their cards where they shop today, because it’s not like you can tap into Visa or Mastercard networks as a back stop either[1]

For what it’s worth, you should do a deep dive on how retailers tried and failed to upend all this with their own ACH based payment systems, the biggest proponent of which was Walmart. They failed for a lot of reasons but not all of them are the reasons you think.

[0]: https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/who-pays-ge....

[1]: I’m not a lawyer but I’m almost certain they have no legal obligation to allow anyone on their network even after the settlement awhile back

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#64
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The challenger to these will solve for a different problem. Not every transaction needs complex fraud detection or being able for the customer do to chargebacks. For a 3% discount, would customers agree to use something that worked just like cash, where the transfer was instant and couldn't be undone? Then you don't have to worry about fraud, chargebacks, etc.

> For a 3% discount, It is fantasy to think they'd get a 3% discount. The goods in stores that take only cash do not tend to be cheaper than those that do. They know what people are willing to pay and will charge the price. If they see people are willing to pay $99 with a credit card, then they'll be willing to pay that with cash.

> The goods in stores that take only cash do not tend to be cheaper than those that do.

In NYC they most definitely do. A lot of the corner stores will change you less with cash. I'm not sure it is a the card payment or that they are keeping the sale off the books, but something that might cost me $18.50, I'll pay $18 for.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#66
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The challenger to these will solve for a different problem. Not every transaction needs complex fraud detection or being able for the customer do to chargebacks. For a 3% discount, would customers agree to use something that worked just like cash, where the transfer was instant and couldn't be undone? Then you don't have to worry about fraud, chargebacks, etc.

I would use my debit card even if it behaved exactly like cash, ie, when the recipient got the money, my only way of getting it back is to sue them or call the police. Obviously any electronic payment system needs to be secure internally but society lasted a long time and made fine progress when having your wallet stolen meant losing your money. It would be fine to require a person to charge their debit card with a f…

I understand that Europe is more secure with chip+pin, but in the US, debit cards do exactly what you describe. If fraud happens, you are out money until it is resolved.

The key difference from cash, in the US, is the ability to abuse cards at a later date without the physical card. For someone to steal your wallet, they have to be colocated with you and can only steal as much as you're walking around with.

As long as debit cards have a magnetic stripe and have their full number printed on them, and that information is useful, this problem remains.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#67
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, if you use that to buy something, you have no post-purchase protections from the payment provider itself (chargebacks, extended warranties, price protections, etc.?) like the kind credit cards will often provide?

Blik in Poland is another example. Every single domestic bank supports it. Marketplaces like OLX (Polish ebay) will sometimes offer a moneyback guarantee for a small percentage of the transaction amount. You can use the same system to pay at the grocery store or the local doner kebab place. We’ve been using cash for far longer than credit cards. And in the EU if you’re buying new physical goods online the merchant is…

Blik now supports contactless payments by, guess what? Providing virtual Mastercard card.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#68
post #35

The total annual digital payments volume is estimated to be $11.5 trillion . Given that context a few billion dollars in profit off the top to add ease of use, security, fraud prevention etc. into the system doesn't seem all that absurd.

It’s not a few billion though. its tens of billions spread across a bunch of different organizations, honestly if you count Stripe, PayPal etc as well, you are in the hundreds of billions. In the last fiscal year for Visa, they alone made $14.9 billion in profit. This doesn’t factor any of the second order money effects either, like kickback to banks for rewards, and this is just Visa. Mastercard, American Express and Discover all factor into this too, at least in the US, and a quick glance suggested this is a world wide figure, which introduces even more variables

The volume is also misleading because it does not differentiate on source, fee structure etc. it’s a gross (as in financial gross) number that says very little about how it was moved and what it cost to move it. Digital payments is a huge category

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#70
You know what I find odd? The fact that we don't seem to have nice payout services that I'm aware of, that would let me payout some money to a service provider from a platform accout, like "Hey, here is my bank account, here's their account and here's how much I want to transfer to their bank, give me an API to handle it without me needing to think about PSD2."

PayPal requires the other person to either also have a PayPal or a Venmo account: https://www.paypal.com/us/business/operations/mass-payments

Stripe requires the person to also have a Stripe account: https://docs.stripe.com/connect/add-and-pay-out-guide?dashbo...

Even local solutions here in EU that allow paying with an internet bank integration, still don't give you the ability to do fully automated payouts, like Klix: https://developers.klix.app/api/ (though they have bulk payments through the portal)

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