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Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#551

Post by rerdavies »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #242
mpweiher wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> agile has killed the happiness...meetings...rituals...meta-work...not actual productivity. All of that isn't actual agile. It's Fauxgile and has nothing to do with what agile is about, which is about removing impediments to productivity, removing meetings (why were there standups? Because they shouldn't exist in the first place, and if you absolutely positively can't avoid them then at least make them as short as p…

I've read the original manifesto and principles, and quite frankly I'm not that impressed with them either. Some of the principles are actively harmful, like welcoming changing requirements late in the process.

I can't think of anything more actively harmful than implementing requirements that are wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#552

Post by leke »

The place I work at recently grew and have adopted this agile scrum thing. We had a course that prepared us for it, but if I'm being honest, I just don't get it. I mean breaking a feature down into smaller pieces, sure I guess that helps. MVP, sure I understand although however you explain it to the client, they always freak out when they use it for the first time. I guess this means they only said they understood when they didn't really. But then there are the meetings and they waffle on about numbers and improving performance. I mean, what am I supposed to do about that? Give me a task and I will try to understand it and do it in a timely manner. That's all I can give you. What exactly is it that you want?

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#553

Post by pillefitz »

pdntspa wrote: post #423
riceman1864 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for commenting this. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading some of the other comments on this post, e.g. "I think we need to get nontechnical people OUT of our process" There are so many engineers out there that are basically coddled children who get paid handsomely to sit in a chair and write code, and have no concept of where their handsome pay comes from. Thankfully, this era is coming to an end and…

You're perpetuating this assumption that engineers are incapable of providing business value without all these nontechnicals that I am complaining about. When I started my career I was working directly with stakeholders and building them exactly what they wanted. I did design, I wrote the code, I handled the infra, I triaged the issues. I was happy, my stakeholders were happy, and my process was not all that differen…

One day you're gone. Then what? I've seen man-years spent by multiple developers trying to understand the application of a lone-wolf developer, with the final decision to opt for a complete rewrite.

Companies optimize for planability and mediocrity, even if it comes at a small premium and hurts those of us who are living and breathing code..

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#554

Post by Raed667 »

leke wrote: post #552

The place I work at recently grew and have adopted this agile scrum thing. We had a course that prepared us for it, but if I'm being honest, I just don't get it. I mean breaking a feature down into smaller pieces, sure I guess that helps. MVP, sure I understand although however you explain it to the client, they always freak out when they use it for the first time. I guess this means they only said they understood wh…

Here is the trick with agile. Everyone involved needs to be working that way for it to have any chance of success.

Even the client needs to be agile. Otherwise it is just waterfall with extra-steps

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#555

Post by fabioborellini »

Too wrote: post #547
selestify wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is actually Agile then, and how does one actually practice it?

The whole idea is that there is no strictly formal version of the process. It can't be answered with a package. The process itself is agile, ammendable, fluid, mutable, improvable. You do what works for you. Just stick to the principles of focusing on the product customer value over the processes themselves, with recurring reflection over how your process is working, as per the agile manifesto. If your company hasn't…

Some companies will just request a ready-made agile process from a certified agile overlord. The process will hinder productivity since only reporting parts and rituals are implemented, and all improvements suggested by individuals participating are dismissed since they are “against the agile process”.

I did leave and the company did crumble shortly afterwards. The main reason wasn’t related to processes, though. It was already too late when the faux-agile was introduced.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#556

Post by worik »

Slightly off topic but my pet peeve is most people who call themselves "Software Engineers" are not engineers. They have not studied any engineering at all

There was a fashion for a while to call people "Software Architects". I do not know what happened to it but I fantasise that some architect society got busy and put a stop to it.

I am a computer programmer. I do things that "software engineers" do, but I do not lie about my qualifications, which are all in science and commerce.

Computer programming is a noble craft, we do not have to put on airs.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#557

Post by casey2 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #6

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

These processes exist for a reason, even if nobody knows what it is. Over time companies that did these things survived, maybe nowadays it is vestigial, but the burden of proof is on new successful companies that don't have these practices.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#558

Post by lazyasciiart »

Aeolun wrote: post #518
mulmen wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a place like that and it was awesome. Unfortunately we were so good at what we did across the board that we got bought by another company to integrate into their larger offering. It made a lot of sense from a business perspective but the tech team in our office was made redundant and so my time there came to an end. I think this is the inevitable conclusion to good, small companies. Since it actually work…

Is it really that hard for owners to resist the alure of a buyout? I dunno, I always like to think that I’d continue doing the good thing that I’ve got going.

If it gets that much bigger you (the owner) probably aren't doing the same thing you were doing.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#559

Post by lazyasciiart »

roundandround wrote: post #235
mpweiher wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fauxgile.

And every time communism meets the real world we call the required modifications state capitalism.

I thought it was called the welfare state, or social democracy.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#560

Post by rerdavies »

lelanthran wrote: post #506
SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools" OK, not terrible, but why not "interactions and tools over individuals and processes"? De-emphasize individual's egos and ritualized processes, focus on the things that get work done and communication between entities. "Working software over comprehensive documentation" Tends to make very frustrating-to-use software, because it's never fully working and has…

> "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" TLDR: Businesses purchase development effort in terms of contracts, and the contract is almost always "You will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less" . Agile is the opposite of that as far as business is concerned - "We will pay $A per hour until our money runs out or we are satisfied with what we get" . I've never understood this one, to be honest. Busin…

A good friend of mine worked for HP Consulting, which at the time was using heavyweight waterfall method. Out of curiosity, I asked her how well they hit their schedules and costs.

"Oh, we hit our schedules and costs 100% of the time", she said.

I was incredulous, so I pressed her on the point.

"Well, compared to the contracted schedules and costs, we run 200% over on average by the time we deliver. But what happens is that customers quickly figure out that what they contracted for isn't anything like what they actually need. And every time a requirement changes, we add time and money. A lot of time and money. More than enough to make up for any actual overruns. So we always hit our schedules and costs exactly, by the time we're done."

In short, "We will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less" is a total scam.

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