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Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

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Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#501
Quote I heard at some point (about crypto, and many things): Money is a star which obscures our view of the planets orbiting it.

Blockchains have many use-cases. The community's insistent push toward tokenization and assetiziation of this technology near-totally obscures the fundamental technology and what its capable of.

Arguably, it isn't even the tokenization. Tokens make sense. Tokens which have value makes sense. But then enters: greed. It's not just about having a token which has value and can do things via interfacing with the blockchain. The asset has to be an investment. We don't think about ETH in terms of what it can do on the blockchain (utility); we think about it in terms of an ETH:USD price. Its utility is impossible to detangle from Growth; Deflation; my Investment portfolio.

ENS is my favorite example. Arguably; this is how domain names should work. A distributed, trustless ledger. Power to the people! And then you realize, it costs $100USD/year to register a domain name. Today is pretty cheap; thursdays are cheaper than fridays, but you should really buy one on a wednesday because that's when gas is at its lowest.

Why is it so expensive? Because the token is an asset. Thousands of stakeholders, really every ETH user, has an interest in seeing the token go up. Token goes up; utility of the token goes down, as it becomes prohibitively expensive to actually do interesting, real, utilitarian things with it.

Real world: Assets which have both Utility & Investment Potential are somewhat rare. Cash has little investment potential, but high utility. Gold, Silver, etc; low utility (not zero, but low), classic investment options. Corporate shares? Low/moderate utility; maybe you can use them to vote on corporate direction, but at the end of the day that vote is in service to investment potential.

It turns out that assets which overload Utility and Investment Potential inevitably screw over someone who needs that utility. They aren't egalitarian, even by the perverted definition of capitalistic egalitarianism. They inordinately favor early adopters and capital holders. The biggest real world asset class which suffers from this: real estate; and our world is observing, in real time, the decades-long consequences of treating housing like an investment.

That leads me to three conclusions about crypto:

1. Crypto & Blockchains are too intertwined with money. It will never not be about money. Most will recover from this crash, and still be about money.

2. Some people say: "How can bitcoin have value? it's nothing. just bits in a computer." That's literally its best feature! Not only is it irrelevant that it can't do anything; it's a good thing. It's among the purest investment vehicles ever created. A store of wealth with near-zero utility. I say let it grow! Every dollar tied up in BTC is a dollar not being spent to make housing more expensive, or grow the tendrils of gigacorporations into every nook and cranny of our lives.

3. Some people say: "This crypto project will be successful; it's doing something really cool, blockchain for wifi networks, or dogs, NFTs for games, whatever". I disagree. Crypto projects which try to be utilitarian Will Always Fail; unless they can detangle themselves from the deflationary investmentization of their tokens. None do that; all are started to make money; their founders being the biggest holders of the tokens, look for a return on investment of their time and effort. You can't engineer greed away.

And here's a prediction for the immediate future: The stock markets are red this month, abstractly, simplistically, because of Fed rate hikes. Recent analysis has suggested that the markets have already priced in more rate hikes than the Fed has gestured it wants to do, for the foreseeable future. That would tend to signal that a broad market crash isn't forthcoming; I'm not timing the bottom, or saying we're heading up, I'm just saying that there's reasons to be positive right now.

Crypto is still dumping; hard. The first reason is the Luna situation, which is REALLY bad, I don't think its possible to understate how bad that is. The second reason is really that last paragraph; value, or money, is a fixed entity. If institutions are seeing positive signs concerning the stock market right now, they're seeing whats happening to Luna, they may be positioning to move capital out of the crypto markets and back into the stock markets.

Crypto diehards will be unhappy to discover that most coins are correlated with one-another. That's sad; there's an alternate reality where people could lose faith in Luna, but still maintain faith in BTC or ETH, and different coins become inversely correlated.

But there's another test running in parallel to that: is the crypto market as a whole inversely correlated with the stock market? Over the past eight years, the answer to that has been No; but its also not been tested in the fires of a major sell-off in one or the other. Today is that test. And if the result ends up, actually, being Yes: that's REALLY good. I can't understate how good that is, for both crypto and our economy; it will give our economy another $1T+ alternative store-of-value to bonds, it'll desync boom-bust cycles which lessens the economic impact of recessions, it just gives capital holders optionality.

What we don't want is: everything crashing at the same time. Crashes are necessary; but its healthier to have smaller, isolated crashes in specific asset classes.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#502
I hate the miss-allocation of funds toward things that are objectively worse for the world. At least with loss-leading-mega-projects and rampant corruption, some of the money cycles back to contribute to society. I just see crypto a net tax on society in the wasted electricity, hardware for more novel uses, and the shear number of people being thrown at building a better pile of crap to extract money out of. Finance is and enough for that, but at least they tend to invest in things that often make people's lives better in some way .

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#503
post #355

I'm pretty perplexed by what crypto has become in practice. All the big selling points for me are that it's a currency (that almost nobody uses as a currency) with mathematically-ensured security (which goes away if, like many people, you're holding a lot of wealth in a centralized exchange that tries to dumb everything down for the entry-level consumer) and controlled inflation (which is defeated somewhat by the mas…

It ain't over till the fat lady sings. Bitcoin (and crypto in general) is far from done. You cannot take one data point in time and derive your conclusion based on the point in time. Also, it does not matter what decision you would make 3 months ago with the information you have today. What matters is what decision you made 3 months ago with the information you had 3 months ago. Same for the decision you are making n…

I'm not saying I don't buy crypto because it crashed at this point in time. I'm saying continuously over a very long period of time I haven't bought crypto, and that's based on the information I have had over that continual period of time. Nothing has changed for me with this crash except that some people who I think are wrong are going to shut up now. (edit: I dream - I'm sure they'll find a way to tell me they're just buying the dip).

I'm saying I don't buy Bitcoin because at no point in the last few years have I seen it be used for anything other than speculation. There are no dividends. There are no voting rights in anything. There is no actual asset aside from a number that a blockchain says you own. It's like owning a share of a company that doesn't actually exist. The only upside is I can buy it and then get lucky and sell it for more than I paid for it, to someone who will almost certainly eventually get unlucky when things crash because it is and always has been useless. I see it as being no different than roulette, a game I also don't play.

It's a fascinating technology on which to build a digital currency, but rounding down, currency seems to be none of the actual usage.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What real math is involved in predicting the stock market? I have a MSC in Statistics, studied quantitative finance. Generally I'd agree with you. For general investing there's often little math involved other than some simple ratios and comparisons. Three numbers I look at most often are the Price-to-Sales ratio, Gross Profit %, and annual revenue growth. There's no complex math involved here at all. Where investi…

> There is some very interesting and fun maths involved in this process that is beyond the scope of general investing. Are there some search terms or resources you would recommend looking into to learn more about this fun maths?

Look at the CAPM for the financial content, and mean-variance optimisation for the maths. It's basically minimising a quadratic function, but in many dimensions, with two constraints - the efficient frontier. You use Lagrange multipliers and arrive at a neat linear system.

Lots of fun parabolas and hyperbolas :-)

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it not a pyramid scheme is that by owning the stock you own part of Amazon, and Amazon makes money by providing a service to users. The inflow of money comes from the users of its product, not future suckers.

If Amazon makes a million or trillion dollars, none of that money goes to shareholders. The only thing that affects the value of the amazon stock you hold is the willingness of someone else to buy that stock from you at a price higher or lower than what you purchased it for. Your return on investment on Amazon stock is 100% reliant on the purchases of future suckers. If tomorrow every one just decided not to buy Amaz…

If the value of it went to 0, I would happily buy Amazon, and take it private, which would entitle me to all of the profit that it generates.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is my weird tin foil hat theory that explains, like, a lot of what's been going in the world in the past twenty years. A significant fraction of young single men feel a deep compulsion to indulge in risky behavior with a potential high reward in order to make a name for themselves or earn their place in society. I don't know if it's genetic, cultural, both. But for many young dudes, it's not enough to simply wor…

I think it's simpler than that. The ideology of the post-90s/post-Reagan neoliberal era inculcated a set of hyper-capitalist values that posited humanity as "homo economicus" and operated as if we are little more than producing, consuming animals who exist to mechanically produce generic "economic output" and consume "utility." This is a deeply unsatisfying and spiritually empty existence. This leads to all the behav…

As a gen-xer, I agree wholeheartedly that the 80s transition of Americans from being people to being "consumers" was a soul-sucking cultural exercise that has created misery all around.

But crypto bros aren't trying to escape that. They are doubling down on being homo economicus because now they're investing in financial objects that are completely decoupled from even representing something as meaningful as a share of ownership in a business.

I think young men with this mindset will play whatever game society places in front of them. They just need a playing field where they can feel they can compete and have a chance to be seen making a home run. Crypto was there so they jumped on it.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#507
post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It ain't over till the fat lady sings. Bitcoin (and crypto in general) is far from done. You cannot take one data point in time and derive your conclusion based on the point in time. Also, it does not matter what decision you would make 3 months ago with the information you have today. What matters is what decision you made 3 months ago with the information you had 3 months ago. Same for the decision you are making n…

I'm not saying I don't buy crypto because it crashed at this point in time. I'm saying continuously over a very long period of time I haven't bought crypto, and that's based on the information I have had over that continual period of time. Nothing has changed for me with this crash except that some people who I think are wrong are going to shut up now. (edit: I dream - I'm sure they'll find a way to tell me they're j…

I had a problem with this part:

> I've been getting told for months that I'm missing the train and making a bad decision by a guy who bought BTC at 60k and told me "everyone" was saying it was going to go past 100k. And apparently I was a fool for investing in property and a diversified stock and bond portfolio. So yeah - I feel somewhat vindicated right now.

I.e. Feeling vindicated right now does not necessarily match what you're going to feel when this is all over.

> I'm saying I don't buy Bitcoin because at no point in the last few years have I seen it be used for anything other than speculation. There are no dividends. There are no voting rights in anything. There is no actual asset aside from a number that a blockchain says you own. It's like owning a share of a company that doesn't actually exist. The only upside is I can buy it and then get lucky and sell it for more than I paid for it, to someone who will almost certainly eventually get unlucky when things crash because it is and always has been useless. I see it as being no different than roulette, a game I also don't play.

People do use it as a payment instrument. More than you think. Speculation is happening, yes, but at the end of the day, if bitcoin makes it or not is going to be tied to its use as a monetary instrument.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My uncle used to brag about how good of a blackjack player by talking about how he would win enough to pay off the cruise he was gambling on. We never had the heart to tell him that all that does is prove that he got lucky; professional blackjack players only average a return of 3-5% profit. That's how I feel about the crypto (and to a lesser extent stock) bros. The future is unknowable, and even people who trade the…

"We never had the heart to tell him that all that does is prove that he got lucky; professional blackjack players only average a return of 3-5% profit." I would say, that depends who they are playing against?

Sure, it's an average. They lose big on some hands, and win big on others, hopefully winning a bit more than losing. My understanding is that it's a volume-business.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#509
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like to put up binary choices. Bitcoin Vs. Dollars, Gold Vs. Yuan, Private bank money vs. really bad managed money supply. I am in the opinion that we should experiment with models other than a bunch of academics with no real practical experience getting together every month and deciding on the fate of the world economy. I am sure we could come up with something better.

Please propose a theory of change then instead of handwaving[1]. We need effective people to make the world better. I've seen lots of complaining about the fed from crypto people but almost no theory on how to manage our economy and incentive systems to bring a more prosperous world. [1] http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/theoryofchange

The whole crypto system is basically a real, evolving mechanism of evaluating different monetary systems. Don't like it how Bitcoin is structured? Fork it and see how the market reacts.

Wants a centralized version of Ethereum when checks and balances? Israel is building that.

You can even build an Islamic monetary structure enforced by smart contracts (addressing sibling comment: historically Islamic financial systems collapsed because they are enforced by corruptible people).

Like all things, most experiments would fail (and most people shouldn't put their savings in experiments!). We might end up with even a worse monetary system (unlikely imho, because I believe the markets are free to accept and reject those experiments). I won't fight it though - the markets are brutal, and in time, kills bad ideas. I do want the experimentations to happen though!

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing?

#510
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mania or bubble. I don't consider crypto market overall to be any type of scam or scheme. Just like I don't consider stock, or housing market to be one. Even if there is insanity, scams, schemes and fraud inside all of them.

At least in theory, stocks and housing are underpinned by intrinsic assets (i.e. things that exist in the real world and/or intersubjective agreements whose value and status are enforced by people with guns). Crypto doesn't have that quality even hypothetically (except to the extent that people insist it does), which pushes it toward the same category as many of the well-known financial scams (which were characterize…

I would only use pyramid scheme to mean rather specific structures. Like many MLMs are, where revenue and profit for individuals is generated by their recruitment activities and so-on. Not in general getting more people in a bubble. Just like Ponzi is centralized system where central actor pays out to old investors with new investors money. Not an open market where anyone can enter and leave at any time.
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