You should give the Rentenkasse an call. They are happy to tell you, if this would be Scheinselbständigkeit.
I already know the answer: yes, it will be Scheinselbstständigkeit. The question is how to legally avoid that classification.
Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
51–60 of 124 posts
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#52Scheinselbständigkeit also takes into account other properties than "only one customer". There are plenty of freelancers working only for Daimler, Bosch, etc. Can you decline projects? Do you control your work times/place. Do you have to handle on your own authority etc.
Thanks to let me know the additional conditions. As an employee I wouldn't be able to control that.
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#53Feel free to reach out to me. We have seen this case couple of hundred times already and I’m sure I can provide some direction. Certainly a Trade Office registration or own limited company is the way to go. Can talk you through the costs as well. My email is ck at firma dot de.
Done, thanks for your help :)
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#54I'm in a similar situation (German citizen living in Germany, working as a freelancer for a company in Asia). As far as I can tell from some research, the only "risk" is that I might have to do some back-payments into the Rentenversicherung. But if I were to be employed regularly to a company (in the EU?) the same would apply. In either case, I have to pay for the health insurance, so there's no real "avoiding the co…
Wrt to social security stuff, one should proactively run a "Statusfeststellungsverfahren" - you fill out some forms and the authorities will tell you how they declare you. That puts you on a safer side. Also there _is_ an "avoiding the cost of social security". If they consider you properly self employed and independent, you do not pay gov social security stuff, but you need to insure yourself (using private insuranc…
I do not want to save any money in taxes, health insurance, social insurance or pension fund. I am actually happy to pay all this. Nevertheless I heard horror stories even by doing so you are at risk they will f..k you anyway after a Prüfung (audit) within the first five years or so.
I even want to stay in the public health insurance (freiwillig gesetzlich versichert). I actually do not want to benefit from being self employed. I just want to make it legal.
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#55So, if I understand you correctly you'll be working on a contractual basis for a single client, full-time for a prolonged period of time. This kind of arrangement indeed is quite likely to be classified as "bogus self-employment" by the German state pension system, no matter your legal setup. I wouldn't bother setting up a GmbH (private limited company) because it most likely won't help you anyway. Unfortunately, the…
I don't think that my employer would do so only for me (given that I don't even have an employer right now, I'm just speaking generally here). But I agree this would indeed be the best option.
Is there a way that I can pay the social security fees from day one on my own to completely avoid all hassle and possible back-payments after a Prüfung (audit)?
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
How so? Is there a problem with having a company with only one employee and one client?
Yes, if you have an incorporation (UG/GmbH/...) where you are the only managing partner (Ein-Personen-GmbH) and you only have one client, you’re handled as if you were a freelancer with only one client. It was an easy way to circumvent several obligations until they “closed” that “loophole”.
When did they close that loophole?
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#57Be aware that if you incorporate, you still will have problems with Scheinselbständigkeit - being a small UG/GmbH does not prevent you from that! Reg. your tax consultancy; we also do international business with freelancers and other contractors. Write me a mail, we might be able to sort that out.
Done, thanks for your help :)
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#58One way to set this up is using some form of consulting/temporary worker company as an intermediate. I was employed in that form for a while. So legally that company hires you and then invoices the U.S. corporation taking a cut. In my case that was Kelly Services and was hassle free (I got my salary as negotiated in time, only interaction I had with them was signing a contract and terminating it) no idea how hard thi…
Someone else will make huge money only because bogus laws in Germany which probably won't be fixed even in the year 2100.
Anyway, I really like the idea and it sounds totally hassle-free. I will contact them and ask. Should I give you as a referral? Maybe you get a check if it works out for me.
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#59You can join any "IT-Genossenschaft" like [0] or [1], which legally saves you from falling into the "Scheinselbstständigkeit" category. One-time cost is about 100-200€. [0] https://www.4freelance.de/ [1] https://www.it-projekt-eg.de/
This sounds genius! Never heard of that. Will definitely look into it. Thanks a ton!
Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?
#60I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…
My understanding is that in your 2nd scenario (contractor), the tax/social security authorities might at some point decide that this is Scheinselbständigkeit, and therefore it's actually been scenario 1 all along. What I'm unclear about is whether they'll try to collect from the worker in DE or the company in the US.
Probably from me. It wouldn't even be a problem for me. I even would pay all of this upfront so there is no hassle five years later.