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Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

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Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#461

Post by ForRealsies »

watwut wrote: post #446
ForRealsies wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today's society has lost the ability to debate.

Compared to what :)? I agree that snark like that is more likely to alienate then convict, but it is not modern invention.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/06/05/jordan_pe...

"They believe that since you don't have an individual identity, your fundamental identity is group fostered, and that means that you're basically an exemplar of your race.

Hence, white privilege. Or you're an exemplar of your gender, or your sex, or your ethnicity, or you're an exemplar of however you can be classified so that you are placed in the position of a victim against the oppressor."

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#462

Post by dang »

bbcbasic wrote: post #149

A reasoned response is a red flag?

Please don't post unsubstantive comments here, and especially not trollish provocations on an already divisive topic.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14492198 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#463

Post by [deleted] »

roguecoder wrote: post #321
baddox wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for me, with the stipulation that I've never had my own office. But I just can't imagine having my own office unless it's a radically different role than I'm interested in. I don't see the point. I'm not taking phone calls or meeting people privately.

Focused and creative work benefit heavily from isolated environments where it is easier to focus. It is less tiring to work in quiet environments without distractions.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#464

Post by dang »

victorhooi wrote: post #292

I don't really get the reference to ping pong tables and free beer...? Is it a metaphor, or is the commenter literally referring to those things? I've worked in a range of places * Investment bank - German, very formal, very little perks * Options Trading Company - Dutch, laid-back, casual dress, free alcohol, free food, lots of games, lots of perks * Database Company - Tech startup, fairly well funded, casual dress,…

The problem with your comments in this thread (along with several other users' comments) is that they take the discussion in a generic direction, which makes it less interesting. The topic is about women because the question was about women, and there's a lot to discuss about that. The best parts of this thread have clearly been the answers from women about their concrete experience. Perhaps the most interesting thing is the wide range of experiences and perspectives they show.

Subtly changing the subject by negating that bit—the one bit that makes the topic specific—worsens the thread, first by genericizing it, which always lowers discussion quality, and then by provoking other users who care about the original topic, resulting in yet another flamewar that we can all do well to avoid. Think about it this way: you basically changed the subject to yourself when the question wasn't about you (and you were far from the only user who did this).

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14491171 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#465

Post by roguecoder »

astrodev wrote: post #274
viraptor wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, if anything, your preconception of other environments does not advertise your own environment well. I can't even tell if there's actually a tech company somewhere stupid enough to say they require someone to agree with antifa, or it's just made up. But mentioning that as something more than a crazy outlier is silly.

I don't think the remark about antifa was meant to be taken literally. Of course, no one will put it in the job description. Do you think it's easy to be supportive of the current US president, supportive of Brexit and sceptical of climate alarmism while working in tech (or in academia, for that matter)? I do not find it easy at all.

Not if that job relies on being able to evaluate evidence or change your beliefs on the basis of observed outcomes. But that's not because of value-less "political beliefs"; it's because people who prioritize partisanship over evidence, on either side of the political divide, are going to have problems in environments that reward responding to feedback. Anti-capitalist anarchists who don't believe in supply-and-demand probably have the same problem.

Though openly supporting racist, anti-immigrant policies in a field with so many talented immigrants may actually be a unique challenge. Promoting policies that attack your coworkers seems like it would alienate a lot of people, at least if you expect to be able to share your beliefs about how people like them shouldn't exist.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#466

Post by eigenstuff »

im3w1l wrote: post #347
VLM wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the positive side think of the meme of the passionate "starving artist". Starving never helped me do anything but lose weight, supposedly it isn't even very good at that long term. Nope being underpaid for the sake of emotion is a complete loss. On the negative side think of the meme of enablers trying to downplay a screamer's actions as merely being passionate about his work, or even worse, the department he mana…

The point of the starving artist isn't that they are starving. They point is that they didn't compromise their vision for money. They didn't sell out. That's what I assume it is about anyway.

I describe myself as a starving artist pretty frequently. What it means is that every week I find myself choosing between materials and food. Sometimes food wins, sometimes materials do (they did this week). Every penny I can spare goes towards materials and tools but I still can't afford everything I need to not only make my work but make it good enough to match my vision, slowing progress significantly which can be pretty disheartening. And so my struggle will continue until I can start selling my work, make my money back plus labor+profit, and I finally no longer have to consider replacing a $15 electric pencil sharpener a burden.

Honestly it's no different from living on ramen while pouring all your money into a business you're trying to start. It's just more romanticized.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#467

Post by TACIXAT »

gizmo wrote: post #435
TACIXAT wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this post was not for you >your ignorance of the topic >blather extensively >Have a cookie. >Irrelevant to you, as a financially comfortable white man. >ignorantly proclaiming on the topic is not fine >You are part of the problem This isn't meaningful discussion. It's just insults, assumptions, and aggressive dismissal of another person's opinion.

Whether sexism is acceptable in the workplace is not up for discussion. So the parent is totally right to educate the grandparent about this. You may not like the tone, but substantively wpietri is right on the mark.

I don't think either of them are addressing whether sexism is acceptable in the workplace. They're talking about whether a "fun" culture is an indicator of sexism in the workplace. If you have another interpretation and the time to break it down, I'm always interested in understanding things from other people's perspectives.

Victorhooi is arguing that alcohol culture is not exclusive to men, but according to personal preference. Wpietri is saying that it can be a strong indicator of a place being a dumpster fire. The discussion is fine and I think both have valid points.

Incorrect tone can cause people to become completely unperceptive to an argument. It's important to not be hostile when looking to change views. A collaborative approach is often the most successful. Belittling people for their opinions doesn't achieve anything besides pissing them off.

>While I agree with X, we should also consider Y and Z because words.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#468

Post by [deleted] »

dracht wrote: post #405

>I check the social media profiles of their prominent engineers and search with keywords like "feminism", "women" and "she". See how they talk about women in the field, whether they follow women on Twitter, whether they posted angry anti-Hillary memes. By diversity you (and many others) actually mean "people who are followers of/subservient to my ideology and preferably in a different shade than male and pale". The w…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#469

Post by Symbiote »

fwefwwfe wrote: post #32
Symbiote wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Plenty of people like to keep a separation between work and a social or family life. My employer has an outing once per year, but little else -- most staff either have a young family to go home to, or a social life outside work. [NB: European in Europe here.]

You never have team lunches? "a social life outside work" wouldn't stop you from having beer with the team or part of the team once every week or two. And I just said a red flag. If it looks like it's more "adults" on the team or more like a government job, maybe it's just fine. YMMV

Most of us eat lunch together at lunchtime, Monday-Friday. There are people that always eat at the same place, and others that change depending on what's on the menu, so the group of people at the table varies, but only one or two people regularly eat alone.

I'm not sure if you mean this, or if you mean a meal in the evening (or a weekend) every couple of weeks. I've not heard of any companies that regularly do the latter. We do this once a year, with a traditional Christmas meal -- pretty much everyone goes to that. There's also a summer event, about 3/4 of the staff go, mostly bringing their children as it's more likely to be a barbeque or picnic etc.

Sometimes, two or three or four of us go to a bar on Friday together, but it's not a team event. It's always less than half the team. It usually means leaving work 1-1.5 hours early, so my colleagues with children don't get home late.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#470

Post by dang »

dracht wrote: post #405

>I check the social media profiles of their prominent engineers and search with keywords like "feminism", "women" and "she". See how they talk about women in the field, whether they follow women on Twitter, whether they posted angry anti-Hillary memes. By diversity you (and many others) actually mean "people who are followers of/subservient to my ideology and preferably in a different shade than male and pale". The w…

This comment breaks the HN guidelines badly to begin with ("incredibly infantile") but this is beyond the pale:

> If my boss is going to be a black woman, she had better publicly condemned theft

No one gets to comment like that here, so we've banned this account. Since we warned you before, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14492191 and marked it off-topic.

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