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Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#431
post #364
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

"Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting [...] a roof over their head that they don't like" Do you have a reference to back up this statement? Have you ever spoken to any homeless people and asked them what they think about this? Clearly there are some limits in which your statement holds; I would prefer to be homeless in a city in the UK than held in a forced labour camp with housing for examp…

I have spoken to more than a couple homeless people that feel this way. Obviously “roof over their head they don’t like” is the big qualifier here. Many of the homeless I spoke to refused shelters because their drugs were stolen/confiscated. If you could get them into an apartment where no one bothered them they’d take it, but that’s not an option.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#432

Well when you say "human right" and a government insists that home ownership is something they will focus on as a human right in their program, to a finance person what you are really saying is "this asset has a free put option attached to it". And having a backstop like that is a very sought after feature for speculators. It isn't the only area where speculators take advantage of it( for example energy generation is…

> What would be your proposed solution to this problem, as in how would you remake the real estate market in the US?

Higher capital gains tax for investment properties to discourage speculation.

The rationale being that it’s perfectly fine to own investment real estate as long as it’s being occupied. Short term speculation incentivizes unrented property (look at any city in East Asia). Incentivizing longer holding periods makes it more likely that the property will be used to extract rents (that is, actually house people, which is what you want).

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#433
post #415

There's no basic human right to have a roof over your head, for the simple reason that someone has to make the roof. Saying "I have a right to have it [without building it yourself]" is saying "I have a right to force someone to build it for me". I dunno about you, I'm uneasy about forced labor. Even beyond that, there's certainly no right to have the roof over your head wherever you want - there is simply not enough…

> I'm uneasy about forced labor.

I'm with you! But what I'm not okay with is gatekeeping of the resource that REALLY makes real estate valuable -- LAND. Nobody made the land.

I'm okay with paying for the labor and capital that goes into housing construction. I'm not okay with somebody extracting massive amounts of value out of the economy just because they own title to the land.

If you want to look at the stats for why real estate has become such a huge asset class, read this: http://gameofrent.com/content/is-land-a-big-deal

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#434
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

housing is complicated My bullshit detector went off right here. Housing isn't complicated. It's only complicated by investment money being involved. Having a roof over ones head is a basic human right. In Australia, the market is so hot, very few young people can afford anything, if you're living in a nice place, you can easily be kicked out after your rent doubles. I know of good, professional people who migrated t…

> Having a roof over ones head is a basic human right. Prove it.

I. Not having shelter kills.

II. To not be killed is a basic human right.

=> Having shelter is a basic human right QED

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#435
In my country (the US), real estate has been the main source of generational wealth that lifted tens of millions of people into the middle class. In 1950, the median home value was $7,400 [0] ($91,000 in 2022 dollars [1]). The median home sale price now is $440k [2]. Real estate is one of the few tools people have for accessing the power of compound interest, and a very large number of people essentially use real estate as their retirement savings. Supply and demand are major forces that impact prices, and that's why so many people fight tooth and nail to restrict the supply.

I'm firmly in the YIMBY camp (incidentally, I don't own any property), but I grew up near Detroit (1990's-mid-2000's), which is a city where supply vastly outstripped demand, largely because the population of the city declined consistently for decades [3] (which I'd largely attribute to a vastly overbuilt freeway system that enabled quick commutes from the suburbs, and explicitly racist federal housing policy [4]). There were hundreds of thousands of empty homes that no one wanted to buy, and this had some very undesirable effects. For one, many homes in Detroit have such low prices that banks can't justify the fixed costs (inspections, appraisals, etc) involved in backing a mortgage, so instead, people who can't just pay cash have to either rent or enter into a land contract [5], where the buyer pays the property owner every month and gets ownership after paying the entire contract off but accumulates no equity. Another issue of having hundreds of thousands of empty homes (ie more supply than demand) is crime and arson [6]. Empty homes in Detroit often became drug dens/crack houses/shooting galleries (pick your term), and thousands went up in flames every year, either accidentally started by drug users, recreationally started by bored youths, or intentionally started by community members trying to eliminate a blight from their block. A lot of Detroit's issues stem from the bulk of the tax base moving out of the city boundary greatly hindering Detroit's ability to fund police/firefighters/sanitation/other public service workers, so this may not generalize to other situations where oversupply makes real estate not a commodity [7], but I often feel other YIMBYs are a bit myopic about just building more housing without considering the potential impacts (both in the case of overbuilding in cities and the case where adequately meeting demand in cities/suburbs drains demand from exurbs or, or meeting demand in suburbs drains demand from the city). And lest it seem I'm just some white suburbanite dumping on Detroit, I love Detroit and think it's a great city with great cultural and engineering output, and I will always stop in to Lafayette Coney and John R King books any time I'm back.

TL,DR: I absolutely want everyone to have housing and we should build more and employ methods (like high property taxes) to discourage people from simply holding empty property as stores of value, but I've seen what can happen when real estate is not a commodity, and it can be terrible.

[0] https://archive.curbed.com/2018/4/10/17219786/buying-a-house...

[1] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

[2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS Note: prices not adjusted for inflation; adjust manually before making any comparisons to other times.

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit...

[4] https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Feder...

[5] https://detroitmi.gov/departments/housing-and-revitalization...

[6] https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/special-reports/2015/...

[7] https://patch.com/michigan/detroit/5-houses-you-can-pick-lit...

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true, but I'm a Georgist so would be against the GP's targeting non-owner tax. Tax everyone according to the value of the unimproved value of their land. I can show you plenty of places with $3k+ rents in SF with prop 13 property taxes that have not changed their tax meaningfully in decades. Taxes have absolutely no effect on what the renter pays. The tenant is always paying the land value. It's just going straig…

"Taxes have no effect on what the renter pays"; by this I assume you mean "market rate is market rate regardless of cost". Sure, to a point. The tax situation of my individual property does not impact the market rate. Just like how the market rate does not change if there is a mortgage on a property, or paid-in-full. If the entire market is faced by a new tax all at once, you will see rents rise. Costs across the boa…

Landlords are price takers. Rental supply is completely fixed in the short to medium run. Landlords can’t change supply when faced with a price shock, which means that rental demand is the only factor that effects prices.a landlords goal is to rent all of their properties at the highest rent they can get, a tax hike doesn’t change that.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you propose we would — systematically — provide housing to people who, for whatever reason, are not in a position to buy? Should housing be bifurcated into government-provided housing for renters and privately-owned housing for those fortunate enough to have the money and stability to buy? Would you like to live in government housing, or would you prefer to keep the investor-owned rental option, but have them…

>How do you propose we would — systematically — provide housing to people who, for whatever reason, are not in a position to buy? Should housing be bifurcated into government-provided housing for renters and privately-owned housing for those fortunate enough to have the money and stability to buy? So...council estates? Subsidized housing is a thing we have. >realize that property rentals are a necessary service that…

> Landlords don't create added value. I'm skeptical that it is a necessary service; housing is necessary, but is renting housing necessary? Why would that be?

There are many cases where this isn’t true. Many (most) residents in urban areas are transient. They stay for a couple of years, get married, then move to the suburbs or another city to start a family.

There are a bunch of other reasons why someone wouldn’t want to stay in a location for a long period of time.

Rentals absolutely make sense in this situation.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#438
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

It's amazing how many people in government globally refuse to understand this. The UK government has just been talking about inheritable 50 year mortgages. No one wants to build more housing. I think it might help people understand to put it in terms like this: there are 100 housing units out there and 150 people. How do we solve the problem?

> there are 100 housing units out there and 150 people. How do we solve the problem?

Double up or move to a cheaper place

That’s how the US west was populated, it’s how the US east was populated too - migration

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#439
post #172

Like another comment here mentioned, housing is complicated. People don't want to live in a random house in the middle of nowhere ('roof over your head'). Some people prefer to be homeless on the street versus getting to a roof over their head that they don't like. People want to live where they want to live (near family, jobs, culture etc) Take NYC for instance. Politicians try to address the NYC housing crisis from…

> So, what instead? You want to build more housing in NYC? Great, that should work. But you have to make it cheap. > because that's the only way a developer can recoup their enormous land acquisition, There you go - in order to make it cheap you need a land tax, nothing else will work (alternatives have been rehashed over and over decades by georgists). Without land tax the property market is stalled without market c…

> There you go - in order to make it cheap you need a land tax

How would land-taxing make it cheap ?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone else feels the commoditization of real estate is unethical?

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would start by making property taxes substantially higher for non-owner-occupied property. If you are rent-seeking rather than residing on the property you should pay way more, maybe 4x or higher, in taxes. Housing prices would crash and that would be the point; but everyone who owns property would be against it because they don't want to see their assets drop in value. The counter-argument people make is "that wou…

There are multiple taxes on rental properties. You have to pay both income tax, and if you are a corporation you have to pay corporate taxes. That's roughly 20% and then another 20%. If you wanted to go with this approach, the better solution is to remove tax deductions for corporate residential real estate investment

Competent landlords don’t pay income tax because they use depreciation and reinvesting to claim 0 income.
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