Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

401–410 of 622 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#401

Post by gkya »

Mz wrote: post #394
gkya wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad that you exist. From what I get reading these threads on this post, many people with power to fire and hire people know a big glossy nothing about human interaction and psychology. Not even one person gives a thought to whether the guy knows what MILF actually is. Not a single consideration was given to his age, his background, his experience. No chance to make a single mistake. Is it mostly like this in the…

She did the correct thing. She went to her boss. That is where she should seek remedy before going to the police. It is typically dangerous for a woman to try to assert herself directly with a man she feels is harassing her. I am particularly savvy and I confronted him and also copied our two bosses and I was well aware I was taking a serious risk. But I also was 100% clear that if I did not take a firm stand with th…

"She did the correct thing. She went to her boss. That is where she should seek remedy before going to the police. It is typically dangerous for a woman to try to assert herself directly with a man she feels is harassing her."

Understood. I'm a male from a different culture and maybe miss the cultural context of the incident.

"This is a problem space I have studied for a lot of years. I am unusually well equipped to deal with it. Please don't start talking like the guy must be innocent. That is as bad, or worse, than the people ready to hang him high with zero due process."

I don't think I implied that he is/must be innocent. What I wanted to say --sorry if not clear-- was that accusing someone with sexual harassment is a big thing and should be done with the due care and consideration. Once labelled, there's no recovery.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#402

Post by UK-Al05 »

ScottBurson wrote: post #267
harryh wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

> you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations If all the OP had was the claims of the harassed employee, you might have a point. But the OP claims to have seen the actual texts sent. IANAL, and of course a lawyer should be consulted, but I would be very surprised if there were any danger in firing the employee without further ado.

You can be extremely selective in the evidence you present. For all you know, they previously could have had "dirty talk" moments earlier. Fell out, and now retaliating.

If you want to be properly moral and just about this? Then you need get his side of the argument and all the information.

If you just want to reduce hassle, then yes just fire him.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#403

Post by Mz »

gkya wrote: post #401
Mz wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She did the correct thing. She went to her boss. That is where she should seek remedy before going to the police. It is typically dangerous for a woman to try to assert herself directly with a man she feels is harassing her. I am particularly savvy and I confronted him and also copied our two bosses and I was well aware I was taking a serious risk. But I also was 100% clear that if I did not take a firm stand with th…

"She did the correct thing. She went to her boss. That is where she should seek remedy before going to the police. It is typically dangerous for a woman to try to assert herself directly with a man she feels is harassing her." Understood. I'm a male from a different culture and maybe miss the cultural context of the incident. "This is a problem space I have studied for a lot of years. I am unusually well equipped to…

Thank you for clarifying.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#404

Post by gkya »

jpindar wrote: post #381
gkya wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said he may have mistaken the meaning of the word. They don't have footnotes on porn sites deciphering milf, bdsm, cfnm etc. Sometimes we say silly things in foreign languages. And also in our mother tongues. It's not like we check every word we use in the dictionary.

Helpful Hint: If the only place you see a word is on porn sites, it's probably not a good thing to call a coworker.

Oh thank you I didn't know that!

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#405

Post by unfunco »

If the person is new employee, presumably you have a probation period clause in the contract, and at the end you can state that it's just not working out, protecting both the accuser and and the accused from knowing circumstance?

You absolutely have to get rid of that type of person, it's already moved outside of work context to a personal context (WhatsApp), which implies that the author of the messages is not comfortable talking about what he's talking about in the context of a work environment because he knows it is wrong, and because he is willing to take that risk, it signals a danger.

You should speak to a lawyer about removing the person from the company in a quiet way (which I think is what the accuser would prefer to protect her complaint) – since he is new, it's generally easier than ridding the company of a long-standing employee. Probation clauses are common in the United Kingdom, I'm not sure about the U.S. – so this advice might be awfully inaccurate.

If you have seen proof, the accused needs to be removed. He is toxic if you know for sure of the correct circumstance.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#406

Post by kaitai »

tptacek wrote: post #228
harryh wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination". By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less l…

Yep. You can read more about these things at Ask A Manager (askamanager.com) and a continuous theme is that everyone is scared of wrongful termination, but that's really quite rare in the US. It involves breach of employment contract. (Lots of similar misconceptions about "protected class" as well.)

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#407

Post by kazinator »

Frozenlock wrote: post #398

While your business might be your life, for most of your employees it's only a job. This means that for most of them, it must be pleasant. They must be able to joke around and even, occasionally, flirt. If you try to turn every social interaction into a perfectly professional unfriendly and unsexualised environment, you will very quickly find that you are the only one left. This is even more relevant in a small start…

> How is she going to react if you fire his ass? Wouldn't it be acting like she can't take care of herself?

You know, it occurs to me you can't have this both ways: take care of yourself and rat out the fiend to the boss above.

"Hello, 911? There is a robbery at Elm and 41st. But don't send anyone, I can take care of these dudes! One of the perpetrators saw me using my phone, so if police arrive, they will know it was me! And that scares me --- that's how much I can take care of this myself!"

If you don't want some authority to take action, don't burden them with the conflict of the knowledge and the request not to take action.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#408

Post by cortesoft »

ownagefool wrote: post #194
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question. With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's…

Referring to someone as a MILF at work is inappropriate at work, even if you are trying to 'spark a romance'. You don't get a free pass to try anything once. If you are trying to spark a romance, you have to do it in a professional way that leaves the other person an out before you take it to an inappropriate level.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#409

Post by TheCondor »

trebor wrote: post #91
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

The only thing I would add to patio11's advice is to go back to the employee and let her know what's about to happen. If you do it without any warning, then yes she might feel that it was a breach of trust. But, if you tell her before you fire the guy you can maintain trust.

Speak to a lawyer ASAP and then absolutely before you act speak with the victim. Both parties could potentially sue, it's not unusual to try and ignore something during the shock phase and then have a change of feelings later. Her simply wanting it to not happen again isn't quite enough. you know about it now too.. Lawyer up, you'll likely terminate the jerk and have some documents for the victim to sign

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#410

Post by cortesoft »

Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

There is certain conduct that is so beyond the pale that it doesn't matter if it is the first time or not. Calling someone a MILF at work is one of those things.
Post reply on HN