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Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

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Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#41

Post by tgv »

brtkdotse wrote: post #11
killtimeatwork wrote: post #7

The software engineers at the top segment in the Netherland are not working full-time jobs, but are instead pulling €800 per day (or more) via long-term contracts. Assuming you're working 48 weeks per year, this amounts to €192k per year.

Yeah, this strikes me as bizarre because it goes to show that the money to pay these salaries exists but companies would rather hire contractors than employees. Fine by me, I went solo 4 years ago and never looked back.

It's completely true that companies prefer that. It looks better on the balance sheet, or so they and the representatives of their shareholders think. Contract salaries can be put in another column, and they keep telling themselves that they can get rid of this expense whenever they want. Any day now. Right?

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#42

Post by meheleventyone »

mmmmmbop wrote: post #21

It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder…

> It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder to scale across the entire EU, and even then, the entire EU market is still smaller at $15T.

I mean it's tech, the US market is open to everyone no? I don't know of many European tech companies that think they'll get anywhere only addressing their local market.

My feeling is that European wages are gradually increasing due in part to the successes like Unity and Spotify, plus FAANG companies effects on local offices. It's a bit lopsided at the moment, someone noted there is almost a bimodal distribution of salary which I'm sure exists in the US as well but is more stark here. Remote work is also starting to have an effect. I earn quite a bit more (still nothing to write home about in terms of the salary I could earn in the US) working remotely for a US based company.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#43

Post by spicyramen »

agilob wrote: post #35
drstewart wrote: post #8

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

> that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. A lot of Americans will jump into this conversation without realising homelessness rate is 10s times higher in US and EU country with lowest literacy has higher literacy than highest literate state in US

This is tangential to the salary and benefits. I live in a county in California where homeless is close to 0 and still makes 3x what a SWE in Europe. American companies such as FAANG take care better of their employees than Europe.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#44

Post by throwaway049 »

agilob wrote: post #35
drstewart wrote: post #8

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

> that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. A lot of Americans will jump into this conversation without realising homelessness rate is 10s times higher in US and EU country with lowest literacy has higher literacy than highest literate state in US

That does not really negate the point you replied to. Europe maybe has less inequality than USA, but situation is still not great

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-author...

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#45

Post by shetill »

zelos wrote: post #38
shetill wrote: post #16

Only way to make comparable money in Europe is by contracting. For some reason full-time employees are massively underpaid compared to US and don't tell me about living cost comparison. Life in London for example is just as expensive if not more than San Francisco/New York. We pay for our national health insurance too and probably comparable to what Americans pay for their private. People can barely afford an average…

57,000EUR is low for the 'top segment' in London though, isn't it?

only OP said this number for Netherlands but it's not too far off for average companies in London

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#46

Post by fxtentacle »

In my opinion, part-time work is much more common in the EU.

Also, there is a cultural difference. If I can earn what I need to finance my lifestyle with 15 hours per week, why work more? The drive to become rich is a lot less strong in the EU because you can have health insurance and retirement money even when you're not extraordinarily wealthy.

Also, living costs are quite low. 2000€ net per month is enough to feed a family and live within waking distance of supermarkets, schools, doctors. You don't need a pricey car.

And lastly, most young people in the US have student loans to pay off. My university was free, so I started working with 0 debt.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#47

Post by em500 »

brtkdotse wrote: post #11
killtimeatwork wrote: post #7

The software engineers at the top segment in the Netherland are not working full-time jobs, but are instead pulling €800 per day (or more) via long-term contracts. Assuming you're working 48 weeks per year, this amounts to €192k per year.

Yeah, this strikes me as bizarre because it goes to show that the money to pay these salaries exists but companies would rather hire contractors than employees. Fine by me, I went solo 4 years ago and never looked back.

It's more difficult in Europe to fire people with a permanent contract. That can make companies more reluctant to hire. As the say of another profession, "I don't pay them to come over, I pey them to go away afterwards".

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#48

Post by occz »

The_Colonel wrote: post #27
digianarchist wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care always gets brought up but salaries are higher in Canada than a lot of European cities.

There's a lot of variation in Europe, but IME the salaries in Western Europe are comparable to Canadian ones. Also, the Canadian healthcare is not exactly stellar. For some reason, dental care in Canada is "only cosmetic" and not covered by insurance.

>Also, the Canadian healthcare is not exactly stellar. For some reason, dental care in Canada is "only cosmetic" and not covered by insurance.

This is the case in at least some western european countries as well - for example, dental is not included in Sweden (except for children, which get this coverage for free).

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#49

Post by comprev »

mpfundstein wrote: post #28

first of all, 57k in NL is definitly NOT top segment. thats mid level. top segment for seniors is more like 80k to 95k. thats a huge difference already! also mind that those online figures not necessarily include 8% vacation money, 13th month, 25-30 days pto and pension fund (up to 100%, usually 50%) source: i had this salary myself after 6 yrs and subsequently hired a lot of people in this segment for roughly that a…

8% vacation money = 13th month. 57k in NL is low medior salary, with 80-95k being the average non-FAANG senior range, wih the exception of possibly Booking.
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