Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 830 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#371

Post by dinosaurdynasty »

kotlin2 wrote: post #237
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

WFO isn't necessarily about personal preference. People who want everyone to WFO believe that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. That is different than someone who desires to work from an office or remotely out of personal preference. For instance, I may prefer to WFH because it makes my life more convenient, but I can also accept that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. Personally, I haven't see…

As an employee I don't care one bit about "productivity" or "better outcomes for the company" or "superior work outcomes", I'm here to get paid.

Also: WFO is more expensive than WFH. WFO could be 10% better but it doesn't matter because it takes 20% more effort. Personally as someone with a chronic illness I'm not even going to entertain WFO unless it pays at least 100% better, and probably not even then.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#372

Post by vladvasiliu »

z9znz wrote: post #298
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

> remarkably condescending I suspect there are two big difference between OP and many of the readers here. At least for sure, Berlin vs most major US cities is night and day different in terms of commute and enjoyment opportunity. Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. Plus it's all accessible without a car. Meanwhile, in the US, it's usually a very different story. Doing something after…

You may be right, but as a personal anecdote, I totally agree with the sentiment you're responding to. I don't particularly enjoy working from the office and much prefer doing so from home, but I can tolerate it. I like my colleagues and shooting the breeze with them, but they're not my friends.

But boy do I absolutely hate my commute, to the point that it shadows whatever positives there are when working from the office. I live and work in Paris (proper), a "big EU city with plenty of things to do". My commute is less than one hour each way by public transit (and I'm lucky enough that my line is rarely affected by random incidents or strikes). But boy do I hate it with a passion.

It's time that is basically wasted. Yes, I read a bit, but it's much worse than if I took the time to read sitting in my sofa. I also get a bit of exercise, but again, it's much worse than if I went for a stroll at a more convenient time. It's a block of time that is fairly fixed during the day and which is tiring without getting much of anything in return.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#373

Post by Namari »

mufty wrote: post #355

Contest matter as I have learnt. I held a similar opinion to yours sometime back. But like most things in life it’s all about trade offs. My previous role had a hybrid policy WFH 3 days and then from the office. To a large extent it really didn’t matter where you worked, so long as work got done. I however rarely WFH. My office was about a 15 minute walk from my where I lived, that commute was never a challenge for m…

I agree but meeting your team is really important, not only for you but for the team itself. People tend to care a lot less about the team or the company when they are not on site to socialize with coworkers. It means people may not think twice about getting another job, a remote job is only seen as a source of income, at least that was my case. So in the company's PoV, I would not hire full time people but hybrid seems fine, or at least people who come to the office one full week many times a year.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#375

Post by colinmhayes »

throw827474737 wrote: post #295
robbie-c wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just seems like those people should work at different companies. Having a mix of people who prefer WFO and WFH seems like the worst of both worlds. (WFO people don't get the atmosphere that they desire, WFH people are second-class citizens for collaborative activites, WFH seniors have reduced ability to mentor their juniors, WFH people still need to live a commutable distance from the office).

> WFH seniors have reduced ability to mentor their juniors Why is that? I find screen-share mentoring on dev stuff that more fruitful I stuck to that even when forced back into office. Less covid, less other awkward closeness, better for ears and eyes :) (Admitted, only non-computer-work mentoring is different).

> Why is that?

I believe it's because coworkers rarely talk about non work stuff when they are WFH. Maybe it's just my company, but when we were in office I felt everyone on the team had some sort of relationship with each other because we'd eat lunch or talk about sports, or even the weather. Now we pretty much only talk about work stuff, which ends up meaning we silo more and collaborate less.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#376

Post by subradios »

watwut wrote: post #343
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

> Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. And then are people who are fully invested, but also aware that a lot of time in office is spend on ... other people trying to get socialization. Cause they don't build relationships outside of work, but still need to talk to people, so they drag meetings and discussions forever. And that is not being in…

The unfortunate fact is that at least in the US, even if you live in a "walkable", "transit oriented" city, there is no way to run a business that's community oriented. Which means that the only actual community available is your work community.

How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment?

I get that your opinion of this is that it's degenerate, and this may be true - but have some sympathy for folks whose regular, non covid experience even when they can walk to all the urban amenities is "I can't make friends because I would have to break into a group, which means an activity that isn't focused on transactional gain, which isn't allowed in the city due to a combination of taxes, rental prices, and most of the city preferring to drink alone and out voting me"

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#377

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

throw827474737 wrote: post #295
robbie-c wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just seems like those people should work at different companies. Having a mix of people who prefer WFO and WFH seems like the worst of both worlds. (WFO people don't get the atmosphere that they desire, WFH people are second-class citizens for collaborative activites, WFH seniors have reduced ability to mentor their juniors, WFH people still need to live a commutable distance from the office).

> WFH seniors have reduced ability to mentor their juniors Why is that? I find screen-share mentoring on dev stuff that more fruitful I stuck to that even when forced back into office. Less covid, less other awkward closeness, better for ears and eyes :) (Admitted, only non-computer-work mentoring is different).

One big category that's missing is the quick, informal after meeting sync. When we were in the office, after big meetings, I would usually chat with my juniors about what happened. What went well and what went poorly, the general theory of how those kinds of meetings work, that kind of thing. That's much harder to do now, so I mostly don't, and as a result our post-Covid newbies are generally worse at running meetings.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#378

Post by JustSomeNobody »

> Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary.

I've been WFH for nearly a decade. I invest in myself by keeping my skills sharp working on personal projects and having a social circle that is made up of a wide range of people not just tech enthusiasts. I invest in myself by not making me only what I do for a living.

Do I work just to get paid? Hell yes. If I didn't need money I'd only work on my personal projects.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#379

Post by MatthiasPortzel »

UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #221

It sounds like you preferred the social aspect of being in the office. Not everybody does. The movie Office Space really hit on some key points: A mind-numbing commute, that wastes hours of "your time" that you don't get paid for. "Corporate Accounts Payable Nina speaking" Egomaniac of a boss/manager hovering over your shoulder telling you that you are typing wrong, and YOU need to work overtime while he buys a new s…

> If you are pro-social: WFO is better If you are anti-social: WFH is better

I understand the characterization, WFO benefits social interaction around work.

But I’m not a very social person, and I prefer working in the office. Work serves as a dedicated space where I’m in contact with people with something in common. I get a lot of my social interaction from work.

I’m not disagreeing, just adding some nuance. I think the “extroverts work in the office and introverts work from home” is overly simplistic.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#380

Post by tomtheelder »

pawelpro wrote: post #55
benjaminwootton wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem for us office advocates is that you travel into an empty office and sit on Zoom calls anyway. Of course we shouldn't drag you into the office just to appease us, but the experience of working together is effectively not available right now.

An elegant solution to this has already been proposed: go and share an office with like-minded people from the same or across different companies.

This is what I currently do, and it is not a solution in the slightest. Most of what I enjoy about working in office is face-to-face collaborative work. I cannot do that with folks from other companies. I cannot do that if every meeting I take is forced to be a video call.

There is no solution for the office crowd except an office based org. It's time for us as an industry to acknowledge that, and to have remote orgs and office orgs separate.

Post reply on HN