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Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

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Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#351
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire. And I've never really had much of a problem with cheap toasters being unreliable in the first place. But I guess there are people who do?

My main issue is usually that it’s so hard to tell if something is cheap but costs a lot, or if it costs a lot because it’s not cheap. Probably also partially because of price anchoring, where products seem expensive, because many very cheap ones cost even less.

When our first cheap toaster broke, I tried to find a replacement part and then started really looking into a 'good' toaster. What I found is that there's pretty much the same metal box inside all toasters under about $200-- and even some of those seemed like they might use the same mechanism. (Cheap but costs a lot!) A few seemed like they might have slightly different control circuitry but not much else aside from the body shell.

I even looked into making my own toaster (though not quite from scratch[0]) but eventually decided I wasn't willing to take on the risk of an untested electrical heating device, in the same way I would be wary of the cheapest toaster from ABCDEFG etc. on Amazon.

Not long after, a customer brought a British-made toaster[1] into my repair shop. I had warned her about the impossibility of getting parts for toasters, but she'd actually already written in to the company and ordered a replacement heating element! It was surprisingly easy to work on, as the timer only controlled the heating element and the pop-up was a manual lever. At first glance that looked like a cheap solution, but on closer inspection it was built well and meant to last. (Costs a lot because it's not cheap.) I hear they still make some like that but the company's cheaper products aren't built the same.

0: https://www.dezeen.com/2009/06/27/the-toaster-project-by-tho...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualit

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enter Elon Musk with Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink, & Neuralink... he seems to have it figured out

And the only thing that seems to be ruining him is the pure software play (Twitter)

When you change a mostly-working product, failure is probable. Especially when you attempt to monetize and politicize in a space that is diametrically against those goals.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#353
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying there is a proven market for luxury toasters? There’s a proven luxury market for literally anything. Just look at the $399 Wolf Toaster, which coincidentally is made in the U.S. This is the same brand that makes the famous Wolf Ranges. https://wolfgourmet.com/store/countertop-appliances/four-sli...

Wow, I did a bunch of searching and this company did not come up. I don’t know how I missed this. It’s pretty ugly considering the price. I just learned about Dualit because of this thread, they make something very similar to the vision I have in my head, except it’s made in the UK instead of the US. I was picturing basically recreating something like the Sunbeam T-20.

> recreating something like the Sunbeam T-20

I got a vintage Sunbeam toaster recently, and in the process I found this guy who restores vintage Sunbeam toasters for almost $300!

https://www.timstoasters.com/

That's not including the toaster itself, which generally runs somewhere around $100 on eBay.

It makes me wonder if it's a better business to restore old toasters (and even other kitchen gear) rather than to make new ones. I haven't used his services ($300 is quite a bit more than I'd like to spend), but it seems like he goes to great lengths to fix up these toasters, even ordering custom power cords from a wire supplier. I bet it would be easier to start off recreating some replacement parts rather than manufacturing a whole toaster.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#354
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered for the longest time what the BAGEL button actually did, because on my cheap toaster, it seems to do very little. Unfortunately I still have more questions after reading the schematic. SW4 (BAGEL) allows current flow through R9/LED3 (BAGEL) which raises Vbe on Q2, forward biasing it, allowing current flow through Q2, dropping Vcs. Meanwhile, power has been flowing through the main switch, with RL3/RL4…

The bagel button makes only one side of the slot get hot (or at least makes one side hotter than the other). Your toaster probably has a bagel icon on the top showing you which way to put the bagel in (cut side towards the center in every toaster I have seen). Source: I'm not married to toaster moguls but I do peer into operating toasters to see which wires turn red. Feel free to replicate my research and post your o…

Mine doesn’t have a bagel icon, but I do put them cut-side towards the center.

Looking closely during operation, the elements facing out from the center didn’t appear to change color with the bagel button depressed. It toasts the bagel just fine (as well as bread), though.

I should get a wattmeter and see if power draw changes.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#355
post #60

I married into toaster moguls. When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. And this was for a company where all the knowledge, equipment, and facilities had beed paid for many decades before. (They invented the electric pop-up toaster for certain definitions of electric pop-up toaster.) Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an a…

> * When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. * I’m not gonna claim to know anything about toasters or manufacturing, but I’d hypothesize that selling American made toasters to the masses is no longer feasible. Most people just want to buy a cheap toaster and don’t care where it is made. So if you were a large company selling to the masses, that business model doesn’t work. B…

I know there is a niche - someone posted Balmuda earlier. I do wonder how far it scales. If you love bread there are better investments than a fancy toaster

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#356

I do this for a living. Setting up a small operation and doing the physical actions of designing, manufacturing and selling the toasters is the easy, fun and obvious part. I figure what your looking for, advice wise, is what's not obvious. A few things you'll need: -Product liability insurance, this isn't isn't easy or inexpensive to get. You need to have a lot of the below in place to get it. - UL certification (or…

> Setting up a small operation and doing the physical actions of designing, manufacturing and selling the toasters is the easy, fun and obvious part.

Sure if you’ve spent a decade plus designing and crafting electronics and metal cases. If not - you’ll probably get stuck there

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered for the longest time what the BAGEL button actually did, because on my cheap toaster, it seems to do very little. Unfortunately I still have more questions after reading the schematic. SW4 (BAGEL) allows current flow through R9/LED3 (BAGEL) which raises Vbe on Q2, forward biasing it, allowing current flow through Q2, dropping Vcs. Meanwhile, power has been flowing through the main switch, with RL3/RL4…

The example toaster has 2 toast slots 3 heating elements (EDIT: Technically 4, as the last element is split into two: RL3 and RL4). Relay 2, activated when the "bagel" light is lit through the gate of Q2, disconnects neutral from heating element 2 (the one in between slot 1 and 2) and 1 (the one on the outside of slot 2). This means that there is only power to the outside heating element of slot 1, allowing you to to…

Then what is RL4? If it were just a resistor for a voltage divider, I’d think it might be labeled differently than the other three.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#358

I do this for a living. Setting up a small operation and doing the physical actions of designing, manufacturing and selling the toasters is the easy, fun and obvious part. I figure what your looking for, advice wise, is what's not obvious. A few things you'll need: -Product liability insurance, this isn't isn't easy or inexpensive to get. You need to have a lot of the below in place to get it. - UL certification (or…

Does the toaster on Amazon have these? If not they are extra.

The toaster on Amazon Basics will be a remarkable replica of your toaster if it's truly successful!

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#359
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main issue is usually that it’s so hard to tell if something is cheap but costs a lot, or if it costs a lot because it’s not cheap. Probably also partially because of price anchoring, where products seem expensive, because many very cheap ones cost even less.

Very true, unfortunately this means that for many modern products it only makes sense to buy the cheapest because then at least you know exactly what you're getting (low quality), even though it's not really what you want. Yet again an instance of Market for Lemons (or maybe Gresham's law). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

It depends. For example for Kitchenware (not electronics), I’m very happy with German company Rösle. Usually the most expensive, but always high quality.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#360

OK now I'm starting to think we live in the matrix - I've spend the last 24 hours (unemployed currently, you see) looking at toasters and designs, with the same idea. And because my toaster just broke. The state of toasters seems quite dire. Most are basically the same mechanism internally with different style covers. Some quick learnings/thoughts: - why are they open at the top? Some expensive Japanese toasters are…

> why are they open at the top?

Because of convection, heat rises, and allows the non-toasting part of the frame, etc., to remain safe to the touch. It would be very bad to take an existing toaster and try to operate it on its side.

Plus, the simplest way to get even toasting is even heat on both sides of the bread (except when you do Bagels).

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