Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#311

Post by segmondy » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

kenhwang wrote: post #9

I echo the comp aspect. I pretty much had a best case non-unicorn startup exit; wonderful benefits pre-acquisition, actual unlimited PTO, and normal ~40hr/workweek, acquired almost immediately after receiving my shares, golden handcuffs after. My total comp was more or less equivalent to my peers doing the big 4 grind over the same time period. They had zero risk and I had to win the start up lotto. But if I had to d…

>But if I had to do it all over again, I still might do the startup route. It's just more fun. There's more to life than money.

Easy to say because you have gotten the money. :-D

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#312

Post by shamino » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

inimino wrote: post #218

shamino wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I joined a moderately successful startup (good acquisition where founders made > $1 m) and the rewards were not worth the risks as an early employee. Also, the RSUs are low risk, high rewards at the "usual suspects". Unless you love working on a small team with more autonomy, but without comfortable resources and losing sleep over whether your company will be there next week, I just don't see the attraction of…

> Why do founders get over 10x early employees? Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment. Founders generally aren't getting paid (at least until revenue or significant funding comes through) and they have 100x the impact that an early employee does on the success of the company. If an early employee doesn't work out, the founders just replace that pe…

At the end of the day, when your company gets sold, and your founder worked on the company for 1-2 years before you did, but they walk away with millions and you walk away with the equivalent of a Camry - I question whether equity is not the solution.

In terms of market rate salary, the startup will never match FAANG. Seriously. I'm talking about Sign-on bonus, annual bonus, re-ups, benefits (like a heart-transplant $100k operation for your kids), gym membership, rent subsidies, etc...

So it has to be equity since that's all the startup can offer. It's income inequality 101, what we're living in.

Anyways, at some point, I'm complaining, because the system is the way it is and we have to live with reality. And I understand that if founders didn't make it out big enough, they wouldn't start one in the first place. But I have a feeling that if enough people were educated on how much a bad deal being an early employee was, we could tip the scale a bit.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#313

Post by onion2k » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

mkirklions wrote: post #67

swimorsinka wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 to this. 10 years ago you couldn't make 400K at Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc. Now you can. Startups made a lot more sense when your opportunity cost was 50-150K per year.

I wonder how sustainable this is. Its 400k while their stock price is crazy high. But If we really are in a tech bubble, that money is back to the typically 80-120k of most tech jobs.

A burst bubble will kill pretty much every startup that can't get to profit with what they have in the bank right now. Raising will be next to impossible. You do not want to be at a startup if that happens.

I'm old enough to have seen the dot-com bubble and it's aftermath, and it wasn't pretty.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#314

Post by Cofike » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #6

nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

>The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. I can second this. But it's not just the m…

The last experience I have with unlimited PTO is it being unlimited PTO until people actually try to take PTO. Then that all goes to shit.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#315

Post by dfabulich » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #114

ryandrake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

400K is average L5-L6 total comp including salary, bonus, and RSUs. (A lot of folks in this thread seem to be confusing base salary with total comp.)

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#316

Post by lkrubner » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

There is no average startup. Everything depends on the competence of the founders, and whether the project sincerely excites you. There is a world of difference between a badly run startup focused on a boring market, versus a well run startup focused on an exciting possibility that might honestly make the world a better place.

Sturgeon's Law says that 90% of everything is crud, and that applies to startups. The good ones are rare. If you get a chance to work at one of the good ones, you should go for it. But can you be sure? Sometimes the founders are talented at selling a false image of what the project will entail.

Startups are a chance to build something entirely original with brilliant and ambitious people. But startups are also dangerous. Limited money means there is little room for mistakes. One bad decision can mean bankruptcy. The potential payoff attracts capital, which in turn attracts scam artists. The unscrupulous often lack the skills needed to succeed, but sometimes they are smart enough to trick investors. Even entrepreneurs who start with a strong moral compass can find that the threat of failure unmoors their ethics from their ambition. Emotions matter. We might hope that those in leadership positions possess strength and resilience, but vanity and fragile egos have sabotaged many of the businesses that I’ve worked with. Defeat is always a possibility, and not everyone finds healthy ways to deal with the stress.

As an example of what can go wrong, see here:

https://www.amazon.com/Destroy-Tech-Startup-Easy-Steps/dp/09...

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#317

Post by mlthoughts2018 » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #273

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #25

Open plan offices and general lack of a quiet, contemplative, professional working environment is the hugest con to me, even huger than the compensation issues pointed out by other commentors. I would look to start-ups to be leading the effort to improve industry practices for software development ergonomy and human-centric working spaces (i.e. focus on privacy, quiet and individual customizability). But instead, sta…

I review the Joel Test occasionally, even if some of the items are kinda dated. It's amusing how both big companies and startups consistently fail two of them (and the test says if you're at 10/12 or lower there are serious problems). 8. Do programmers have quiet working conditions? 9. Do you use the best tools money can buy? Startups could out-compete larger companies here by providing both shared working space and…

I was just writing a comment on here the other day about whether there should be a “Paul Graham test” based mostly on the essays “Great Hackers” and “Maker’s Schedule, Manager’s Schedule.”

The unequivocal importance of private offices is mentioned in both (in the latter, it’s focused on how meetings swiss-cheesify the day, but the point is obviously the same as that of private offices vs. open plan interruptions.)

So it remains a mystery why Y Combinator and YC-backed companies, so informed by many of Graham’s viewpoints, aren’t more proactive about this.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#318

Post by snowmaker » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

quadcore wrote: post #295

To hire better you have to look at the past source code. I got hired once in a startup in France and what the CEO did is that he looked at all or so of my personnal projects. He could figured out I was a good programmer because I was able to run most of my programs and talk about them in depth. If you want to work in innovation, you have to have side projects. Has anybody tried that? Sounds quite like a silly questio…

I think this is a real advantage that startups can have in hiring over big companies. At most big companies, the first screen is from a non-technical recruiter, and they won't be able to do this.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#319

Post by Cofike » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

dabockster wrote: post #283

mbesto wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but there are plenty of startups run by ego-centric micromanaging wanna-be engineers. This times 1000. Too many stories to tell, especially in SV.

Also, > you may find yourself having to explain your decisions/code to people who's engineering skills are 'being able to convince a VC to give them money' > you'll also probably not tackle 'large problems' but hack and slash a Node/Django/React app into meeting an MVP Those hit way too close to home for me. I made the mistake of joining such a business when I was fresh from college and broke. The only good thing tha…

I think we may have had the same first job out of college.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#320

Post by Jemmeh » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

eloisant wrote: post #307

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #22

Having not worked in the Valley or a startup, I can say the biggest con to me is a lack of stability. You can get a job at BigCo or even MediumSizedButBeenAroundTwoDecadesCo and be reasonably sure you'll still have a job... as long as you want to work there. But with a startup, either they run out of money and you lose your job, they pivot and don't need you and you lose your job, or they get acquired and you very li…

Currently it's not hard for a software developer to find a job, especially those that YC startups would want to hire. So I don't think stability is much of an issue in the current economy, developers are not afraid to lose their job because they know they'll have dozen of opportunities just by activating their network.

Even with that being the case finding a new job is a hassle and means you have an interruption in pay and insurance. Gives me a lot of incentive to just work at BigCo and not worry about it until -I- want to worry about it.