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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#301

Post by StevePerkins »

kotlin2 wrote: post #273
toomuchtodo wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I haven't seen many good arguments that WFH produces superior work outcomes. https://www.apollotechnical.com/working-from-home-productivi... https://resources.owllabs.com/hubfs/SORW/SORW_2021/owl-labs_... > Several studies over the past few months show productivity while working remotely from home is better than working in an office setting. On average, those who work from home spend 10 minutes less a d…

I'm not going to comment on the entire Apollo Technical source, but I think some of their claims are misleading. For instance, they say this: > A study by Standford of 16,000 workers over 9 months found that working from home increase productivity by 13%. They link to the study, but it 404s. I believe this is the study [0] and it focuses on a single call-center. It's not a broad survey of 16,000 workers. [0]: https:/…

Your own cite is to a productivity report from a single quarter, when the WFH wave is in its 11th quarter now.

This feels like Wikipedia-lawyer disingenuous citation dueling. Nothing in this thread (or wider discussion writ large) is truly data driven in any scientific sense. Everyone is arguing their subjective view here, the only question is your self-awareness about it.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#302

Post by furyofantares »

I'm a WFH guy. All the stuff you talked about for yourself is valuable, it's valuable for me too! It's just not worth the trade offs.

The stuff you said for WFH people is largely a bad take.

I'm doing some volunteer work at my kid's school which would be a major hassle if working at the office. Her teacher said most years she gets 3, maybe 4 volunteers signing up. This year she got 14.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#303

Post by zmxz »

> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do

That used to be true, before smartphones arrived and before DevOps became a thing.

Now it is what it is - a lot of (mediocre or worse) people working on something they don't particularly like, in order to get by. And that's ok.

The romantic days of IT are over, there are no more heated discussions and geeky hobbies we all used to love.

I thought working from home would be great. But after I did it for 12 months, I became sick of it. What I think now is that hybrid model works for me - I can go to the office when I want to, but if it's raining outside or I feel really bad - I can stay and WFH.

For some people, full remote works. For some - full on premises works. For some - hybrid is good.

I guess this falls into de gustibus non disputandum est category, but my unpopular opinion is that IT is full of impostors and that a huge number of impostors uses work from home as incompetence disguise - because it's so easy to hide incompetence while you're away from anyone who can spot you.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#304

Post by _madmax_ »

null0ranje wrote: post #213
unethical_ban wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work is a third of our life, and it seems reasonable that many people would want social interaction during that time. Further, at least in the workplace I had before Covid, people could work from home as needed, or even part time, depending on their management. Granted this was for IT, not for the whole company though. You think WFH is every individuals choice in this new world. It isn’t. The last place I worked had…

> The last place I worked had 25,000 people on its main campus. Three gyms, three coffee shops, four cafeterias and more square footage than the pentagon. I interviewed at a place like this, with all the in-site amenities. They were particularly proud of offering breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day to the staff. As I finished my last round of interviews, it became obvious that they offered this because they expect…

work trying to compensate life is insane. I don't want to spend all my time there and have dinner with you guys, no offense.

In the end, they will fire you if their numbers don't align in your favor, but hey, they fed you.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#305

Post by lijogdfljk »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #259
kotlin2 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WFO isn't necessarily about personal preference. People who want everyone to WFO believe that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. That is different than someone who desires to work from an office or remotely out of personal preference. For instance, I may prefer to WFH because it makes my life more convenient, but I can also accept that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. Personally, I haven't see…

> The closest work-related argument I've heard is that some people work better when they're free of distractions at the office. That takes us back to companies being collaborative human endeavors. One may feel they work better in isolation, but part of ones job is to interact with others, even if that's not fun. Have you worked in an open office or cubical farm? My hearing the sales guys isn't 'collaboration', it's d…

As a big supporter of a WFH choice (and have myself for ~10 years):

> Mass WFH started in 2020 - I don't think you can link a Q2 2022 productivity decrease to WFH, considering the previous quarter will have had even more WFH. In fact, it's easier to link it to the return to the office.

I would honestly be impressed if a initial WFH productivity decline wasn't found. A lot of people were not prepared for WFH. They didn't have the home to accommodate it. I expect some decline for anyone who was not prepared.

I purposefully bought a home with 2 extra bedrooms just for offices because i've always enjoyed a dedicated office setup. So it's quite natural for me to WFH. However this is clearly a luxury and not what many people have. Closing the door to distractions is huge, to me at least.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#306

Post by larryliu »

ryandvm wrote: post #199
larryliu wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like America's racial desegregation in the 1960s. Life of white workers did not become worse since colored workers joined the professional workforce. I am in the US. Let it drop then, I will adapt by becoming a digital nomad. Maybe I will move to Mexico or Argentina for the better life there. You can buy much more life quality with half the funds. I already know some Spanish, it's easy to pick up once I live the…

> I am in the US. Let it drop then, I will adapt by becoming a digital nomad. Maybe I will move to Mexico or Argentina for the better life there. This is the high technology equivalent of what middle class America has been going through for the last couple decades. Imagine telling a machine operator in Ohio, "sure, we're going to lose all the manufacturing jobs to China. You just need to move there and you'll live li…

I know a retired American factory worker who did exactly what you said for his manufacturing career -- relocating to Philippines for introducing American machinery and management practices.

He was a line manager in his late 20s(like a mcdonalds store manager, the bottom level salaried position managing dozens of shift employees) before he went to Philippines. Moved with his wife and kids, and later his parents. His father fought WW2 in Philippines so there is some emotional link.

He ended up making millions(USD) from bonus, investments and sidejobs during 1980-1990s. He said it's impossible to make this much without first hand information of what actually happens in overseas manufacturing.

#vanlife? no, he lived in decent homes and apartments since day 1.

and this is just Philippines, to which China industrialized later but reached much higher levels. I am sure your factory worker relocating to China will have more and better opportunities than him.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#307

Post by paweladamczuk »

I think your perspective might change once you have kids (forgive me for assuming you don't yet).

That additional hour or two a day that you can spend with your family might end up being worth more to you than the prospects of social life and building a carreer with other like-minded people.

I really agree with the sibling comment about people having different perspectives and priorities. Perhaps you could find what you're missing somewhere else instead of trying to convince your colleagues to come back to the office?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#308

Post by rootusrootus »

voisin wrote: post #210
cmiles74 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, it's the employers that are pushing us to view these as two opposing extremes. I suspect this is because for so long (as long as I can remember) they've had all of the power and control. Clearly something more personal is the best solution, there's likely also an age component here as well. I know that with a child it's much more convenient to be at home most of the time. Now that employers have given…

> I suspect this is because for so long (as long as I can remember) they've had all of the power and control. We are heading into a recession (if not there already). As the strong labour market deteriorates, this power imbalance will shift back to managers.

My thoughts exactly. Even if software devs still maintain a better than average negotiating position, companies continue to have the upper hand and it's just going to get worse for a while.

I think inside of five years 9 out of 10 people who work from home today will be back in the office. Against their will or not. The company just doesn't need most of us more than we need it, and that won't change. I think a lot of people in the IT field right now just haven't been around long enough, so they think the current employment environment will continue indefinitely. The last 15-20 years have been pretty good, but they are almost certainly the exception.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#309

Post by bombcar »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

There are also different kinds of jobs at different companies. Some jobs are basically "wait around until something explodes, and then all hands on deck" - the IT equivalent of firemen, for example.

Those jobs certainly have a fun "club" aspect when hanging around the firehouse waiting for disaster to strike; and that aspect is gone when everyone's working from home doing whatever.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#310

Post by TristanBall »

ianai wrote: post #246
kotlin2 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WFO isn't necessarily about personal preference. People who want everyone to WFO believe that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. That is different than someone who desires to work from an office or remotely out of personal preference. For instance, I may prefer to WFH because it makes my life more convenient, but I can also accept that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. Personally, I haven't see…

If you want WFH to value-add to your position then it’s on you to make it happen. Where I am, the WFHers have ruined a lot of morale and contributed to around half the team leaving.

How do WFHers ruin morale?

And was it really them, or managements treatment of the issues?

We've got a "flexible" tues-thurs in the office, but pretty much on any given day there's maybe 50% in the office, max, unless there's a particular event or reason.

And it's fine. Every meeting is 50% of people on zoom, but who those people are varies day to to, there's no lines drawn... and lots of the managers are just as likely to be wfh as the rest of us so...?

We did invest in some fairly decent zoom set-ups in our meeting rooms, and even some stuff in my open ad hoc areas, and we've all got good enough equipment and headphones, we do very very little of the "can you hear me" song and dance.

We work. We laugh and joke around. We do it on zoom and we do it in the office.

So..I'm seeing it work, not perfectly but not noticeably worse either.. what broke in your environment?

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