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Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

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Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#31

Post by xiphias2 »

mmmmmbop wrote: post #21

It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder…

I’m not sure that G from FAANG underpays: I stayed in Zurich because I got much better pay than if I moved to US. Also the pension system in Switzerland is awesome. The big downside though was that the male-to-female ratio was beyond unhealthy, so it’s a much better deal for women and men who have a family already.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#32

Post by naruvimama »

I can think of two reasons

1. Productivity - US is a large English speaking country, the mobility and productivity is great. Having a slight edge over others will make you very valuable, especially considering that many US companies are global.

2. Unionisation & socialism - At least in the Scandinavian countries my observation is that management/govt/unions holds a position that software developers should not be paid a lot more than other employees. And developers accept that, because "that is how it is down here". I pity the condition of highly qualified doctors, who after spending a decade in study/residency get only a small premium above average. And in contrast taxi drivers who started early in life own a lot more in assets.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#33

Post by [deleted] »

ghoomketu wrote: post #26

I remember when the salaries in India for a full-stack engg were in the range of $2000 / mo ($24K) and it was considered a "good" salary. We had to work on Saturdays and often Sundays. And I'm not talking of some local company, but the so-called tech leaders like Wipro. One time I was travelling with a french colleague and while I was given an economy class ticket my friend got a business class ticket on the same fli…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#34

Post by simonh »

mmmmmbop wrote: post #21

It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder…

They could compete with each other more aggressively for EU talent, essentially extending the US market for s/w engineers to the EU, but the problem is a huge swathe of the best EU s/w engineers already move to the US chasing those x3 wages.

We're somewhat better off here in the UK, we have a well developed s/w industry in games, defence, embedded systems and finance. The difference is maybe only 2x instead of 3x.

On of my daughters is considering going into s/w engineering, so I'm resigning myself to the thought there's a good chance she'll head west on graduation (I'm a Brit). The pull of the US isn't quite so strong here in london if you get into finance, but if you're a top flight talent in say Ireland or Scotland what are you going to do? There are few local opportunities, and no good reason to go to London as against SF or Seattle.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#35

Post by agilob »

drstewart wrote: post #8

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

> that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard.

A lot of Americans will jump into this conversation without realising homelessness rate is 10s times higher in US and EU country with lowest literacy has higher literacy than highest literate state in US

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#36

Post by whiddershins »

killtimeatwork wrote: post #7

The software engineers at the top segment in the Netherland are not working full-time jobs, but are instead pulling €800 per day (or more) via long-term contracts. Assuming you're working 48 weeks per year, this amounts to €192k per year.

How many contractors work 48 weeks a year?

And what do you think US software contractors make?

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#37

Post by axiosgunnar »

ourlordcaffeine wrote: post #29
drstewart wrote: post #8

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

A lot of my US friends are paid a lot but have 0 free time. I'm not paid as much but I have a lot of free time and holiday (31 + public holidays). Also being sick doesn't use holiday days

Are you being paid 11/12th of their salary?

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#38

Post by zelos »

shetill wrote: post #16

Only way to make comparable money in Europe is by contracting. For some reason full-time employees are massively underpaid compared to US and don't tell me about living cost comparison. Life in London for example is just as expensive if not more than San Francisco/New York. We pay for our national health insurance too and probably comparable to what Americans pay for their private. People can barely afford an average…

57,000EUR is low for the 'top segment' in London though, isn't it?

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#39

Post by axiosgunnar »

naruvimama wrote: post #32

I can think of two reasons 1. Productivity - US is a large English speaking country, the mobility and productivity is great. Having a slight edge over others will make you very valuable, especially considering that many US companies are global. 2. Unionisation & socialism - At least in the Scandinavian countries my observation is that management/govt/unions holds a position that software developers should not be paid…

That sounds dystopian

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#40

Post by jstx1 »

shetill wrote: post #30
jstx1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We pay for our national health insurance too and probably comparable to what Americans pay for their private. To clarify something, in the UK there are two main deductions on personal income - income tax and National Insurance. National Insurance doesn't pay for healthcare, it pays for things like state pension and other support benefits - https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/what-national-insuranc... . The Nation…

thanks for clarifying I always thought NI contributes to NHS. Shame that it's not, makes sense now why NHS is in this state...

It also makes you wonder about NI itself. Have a look at what you're paying every month and how much you'll actually get for your state pension - it doesn't seem remotely worth it. And I get that it's a social service and it should cover the benefits for people who don't contribute - but it's a lot of money to pay for something you don't benefit from yourself.
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