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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#281

It was very interesting for me to observe my own reaction to this thread. When I first read what you wrote, I though "fire. immediately." I think I was just angry that someone would be so off the mark when they are a new hire. And the milf thing made me genuinely angry. But as that anger passed I realized how much of a gross overreaction that is. People pursue workplace romance all the time. The thing that sucks abou…

"Romance"? Are you serious??? There's nothing the slightest bit romantic about what this guy did.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#282

Based on the training I've received - document the incident, talk to the problem employee and remind him that this is not appropriate business behavior, and warn him that a repeat performance will not be tolerated, nor will any attempts at retribution aimed at the company at large, or the female employee. Provide training to the company at large, so they know what is, and what is not acceptable in a business. Get tra…

If you don't know by 21 that calling a woman a milf is degrading and offensive, you're never going to learn. Or at least not in any timeframe where it's valid for this company.

I think you over estimate how mature people are. I worked at a bottom heavy company and constantly wondered if I was this immature at their age.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#283

As an experienced biz dev person, I feel like I understand this type of employee and have worked with them many times. Based on the feedback from your female employee, it sounds like her concern is this happening to other people who doesn't "know how to deal with it" and that is why she got you involved. She doesn't seem concerned with short term repercussions, more about this employee's attitude needing adjustment f…

What the victim wants isn't relevant to the decision of how to handle the harasser. The reason the harasser should be fired is that they are creating egregious risk for the company.

All that has to change in this story to create a nightmare scenario is for this bizdev person to have harassed someone who was already on a PIP, or who is about to be placed on one, or someone who has a preexisting grievance with the company.

There are better places for bizdev and sales people to learn professionalism than in depositions.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question. With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's…

> With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's been rubuked, hopefully he got the point and will settle down. I see your point, but if you're an employee and you're sharing that "so and so texted me this ", what's the motivation behind that? She said she doesn't want to cause problems, but if it's something between two adults and not…

> I see your point, but if you're an employee and you're sharing that "so and so texted me this ", what's the motivation behind that? She said she doesn't want to cause problems, but if it's something between two adults and not involving work, I would imagine she would just not say anything, particularly to management.

I think you're dangerously into all women are always resonable logic there. It's entirely possible, that the female employee, as an employee of a startup, is inflected by the same hyper-sensitivity that plagues communities such as ourselves. Conversely it's also entirely possible that male employee is a complete and utter dickhead. I wouldn't bet my life on either one being the truth.

> OP needs to read into their conversation, it's hard to armchair quarterback this over the internet. At the end of the day it's ultimately easier for us to say fire for a multitude of reasons, many of which are likely valid.

Well yeah, the OP hasn't given us enough info to really comment and he'll need to use his own personal judgement on whether the messages were over the line or whether he was just being a guy. I'm just trying to remind people that whilst we should be professional at work, we aren't automatons and normal people are going to continue dating and bonking their colleagues or attempting to do so and whilst that's sexual, it doesn't necessarily constitute harassment.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#285
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, but where was it? Also, Milf can be sexual harassment. Sure. So can be telling someone "you look nice". I worked with someone that was bashed by HR by telling a co-worker "I like your new haircut". I didn't see it as SH. It depends on point of view.

There's a clear difference between "I like your new haircut" which I agree is not sexual harassment and MILF: Mother I'd Like to Fuck (which is just slightly above calling your coworker slut). The second sentence is sexual harassment.

Doesn't there have to be persistence involved for something to become harassment instead of just being a single instance of a offensive/dumb/annoying comment?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#286
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know we're going on and on here, and I want to say that I generally enjoy your comments and am not just trying to be the picky message board jerk I normally am. However: It is very unlikely that a competent hiring practice will generate implied contracts for severance pay. Employees are not generally entitled to severance. Awarding severance to one employee probably doesn't create an implied contract with other emp…

> Awarding severance to one employee probably doesn't create an implied contract with other employees. I believe that this is incorrect. If you fire 10 employees in a row and they all get severance but then the 11th doesn't they absolutely can hire a lawyer and ask why and start digging into events that lead up to the firing. If it turns out that they were fired for sexual harassment without being given a chance to r…

I am very, very interested in seeing documentation or expert opinion to back this up, because it implies that you can easily and accidentally create an implied contract for severance simply by offering one-off severance.

That would imply that there's a legal disincentive to offer one-off severance (for instance, for a no-harm no-foul sorry-to-waste-your-time bad hire).

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the side of the story we know. Do you know something not present in this narrative? The use of 'milf', whether it's derogatory or a compliment, will depend entirely on the context of the larger conversation. Something we don't have. Something which apparently the OP didn't have either.

No one makes up stories like this. They're ALWAYS TRUE. Plus, she probably can show him history on whatsapp (if it supports that, I don't know). MILF is NEVER a compliment to a stranger. It's NEVER a compliment to a friend you just met. It's probably a bad idea even if you're in her bedroom and both stripping down about to have sex. The only time it's sorta safe to call someone a milf is if you were the one who made…

I agree with your last three paragraphs.

Unfortunately I do think such accusations are made up occasionally -- though probably not as often as true accusations are dismissed as fabrications. (I believed Anita Hill.)

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the consensus. The consensus in the grown-up business world is to protect the company . Protect the company from the sexual harassment suit, and protect the company from the wrongful termination suit. As such, no one will ever fire for cause on the basis of one incident report on a single interaction that occurred away from the workplace. But you can be certain that everyone in the building gets additiona…

What "wrongful termination" suit are you referring to? Please be as specific as you can.

What, you didn't know that people who like to sexually harass their coworkers were a protected class?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#289
post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

> I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." Not in my experience, and it's not the law (as taught in the myriad of training courses I've endured over the years). The man should have an opportunity to learn from this mistake, then be fired when he proves incapable of learning. Providing the warning and training is enough to legally cover the company's ass if the guy screws u…

Its a shame to see how aggressively this is being down-voted. All you're saying is to take a step back and try to improve the behavior before firing the guy. Face to face dialogue, communication, etc etc is much more likely to prevent this in the future.

Just firing him is kicking the can down the road to the next company.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a mistake. He didn't leave the server room door open. He called her a MILF.... TO HER FACE. He's not 12 (I assume). If he hasn't learned to be respectful to women before now, it's not this guy's job to teach him.

Per the side of the story we know. Do you know something not present in this narrative? The use of 'milf', whether it's derogatory or a compliment, will depend entirely on the context of the larger conversation. Something we don't have. Something which apparently the OP didn't have either.

It's almost certainly inappropriate. That doesn't, however, mean he needs to be fired on the spot.
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