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Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#251

Post by onion2k »

gjulianm wrote: post #123
onion2k wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If right now you cannot upload a 3D model to Fortnite straight away, why do you think it would be easy to do with NFTs? I didn't say it would be. NFTs are about access control and ownership, not 3D models. That was only the example I've used. The (huge, but largely unrelated) issue there is about standardizing assets which would also need to be solved (gltf does go some way to doing that though ... it is "the gif of…

> I didn't say it would be. You said it would enable it. But the stopper about that implementation is not ownership tracking, it's integration. So it's an use case that's not enabled by NFTs, just an use case where you could use NFTs but also any other ownership tracking technology. > If it's easier to think about, try applying the same solution to unique avatars or something, where the display mechanism is solved. I…

What stops me from copying the image and using it?

Games would need to implement a mechanism so users could only use an NFT as an avatar. Or it'd attach a little tick to show you're the verified owner. Or something.

I've thought about this for about five minutes. I don't have a full working solution.

You might find that there are other issues that explain why X hasn't been done.

"It hasn't been done so it probably can't be done" is a really dumb attitude. It's utterly defeatist. It could simply be that no one has tried yet. Or the wrong people tried. Or people are trying right now and you haven't heard about it yet. Not seeing something is not evidence it can't be done. That's beyond ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#252

Post by antifa »

mandmandam wrote: post #141

I agree 100%, except my memory of the early crypto conversations is a bit different. I remember very little curiosity on display, and a whole lot of confidently wrong predictions of imminent collapse. My view is that if cash is crude oil, Bitcoin and mined currencies are whale oil; competing against fusion. The discussion here these days is basically people saying things like, whale oil is better than nuclear fusion…

> My view is that if cash is crude oil, Bitcoin and mined currencies are whale oil; competing against fusion.

Of course, in this analogy, fusion, while of course always being "10 years away", is moving to post-scarcity instead of inventing new forms of artificial scarcity.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#253

Post by gjulianm »

onion2k wrote: post #251
gjulianm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't say it would be. You said it would enable it. But the stopper about that implementation is not ownership tracking, it's integration. So it's an use case that's not enabled by NFTs, just an use case where you could use NFTs but also any other ownership tracking technology. > If it's easier to think about, try applying the same solution to unique avatars or something, where the display mechanism is solved. I…

What stops me from copying the image and using it? Games would need to implement a mechanism so users could only use an NFT as an avatar. Or it'd attach a little tick to show you're the verified owner. Or something. I've thought about this for about five minutes. I don't have a full working solution. You might find that there are other issues that explain why X hasn't been done. "It hasn't been done so it probably ca…

> "It hasn't been done so it probably can't be done" is a really dumb attitude. It's utterly defeatist.

No, that's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that if something has not been done yet, you should think why that is. And if it turns out that someone could have already done it with existing technology, one should really consider why is that. Yes, maybe it's one of your reasons, or maybe is that it isn't worth it, or that there are implementation issues that are independent of the storage technology, or whatever. It's a basic step before evaluating any solution and it is missing constantly in crypto discussions. And the worst thing is that, when we point out that there are other issues apart from crypto/nocrypto, the only response we get is "but it could work" and "don't be defeatist".

That basic question could be applied to your avatar example. A game developer could implement a similar system where the only allowed avatars are the "official" ones, and you need to buy them. You don't need NFTs for that, and yet you don't see it a lot. I think PlayStation had only official avatars, but they discontinued them in the latest PS5. Could it be that it isn't a feature users want? That the development costs are greater than the possible profits?

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#254

Post by antifa »

reginold wrote: post #191
svennek wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the the people of the ex-DDR, the North Korea and REALLY targeted individuals.. Sadly there exists no sure way to secure you belongings if the other party is sufficiently motivated to strip you of them (or your life).. You can also be killed/robbed outside of your country by intelligence officers of your country...

I'm so curious about your posts, this seems like an endless thread of gotchas. What's important to you about this topic? I have read all your posts in this thread and am puzzled. Thanks for any insights.

Complaining about "gotchas" like this so much sounds a lot like admitting defeat but desperately trying to phrase it as a win.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#255

Post by joeman1000 »

Nuanced and ‘curious’ thought gives way to what is fashionable and easy: black-and white-thinking. Extremism is sexy, empowering and rewarding for the self-righteous little person in our brains. Things are rarely clear-cut ‘good’ or ‘evil’.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#256

Post by ddtaylor »

reginold wrote: post #198
ddtaylor wrote: post #145

As a long time supporter and developer of cryptocurrency I myself am pretty disconnected from the space right now. Almost all of the goals we set out in the early days of Bitcoin, like "be your own bank" have failed terribly. After more than a decade all we've managed to accomplish is creating a slightly different arrangement of the same pieces.

Is there a place I can go to talk to people like you? Or maybe you but before you totally disconnected? I'm curious what your hopes were for being your own bank kinda stuff. How did you imagine it would work, what was important about that to you... and the the other side, what fell short etc. You rightfully probably don't want to answer these questions as your curiosity has moved on, but I would be curious in case yo…

The hope was that consumer adoption would be more broad and people would have little incentive to keep their money in silos/banks because the security offered by regular wallets would be enough. In a world where most businesses accept crypto directly banks would be relegated to their proper function: facilitating loans.

Consumer adoption was going pretty well until the technical hurdles were hit. Each blockchain handled it in a different way, but the poster child of crypto, Bitcoin, is still seen today as expensive to transact and impractical for consumer adoption. When Ethereum got more popular in the last years due to the NFT boom the same thing happened to them. You can't reasonably market the "be your own bank" narrative when each transaction costs $25 regardless of the amount being transacted. Lightning is an interesting alternative but after 5 years it's still impractical to use for regular consumers and if you look under the hood anyone saying they're "using lightning" is actually using a custodial wallet that just has a coat of Lightning paint on top of it. Bitcoin Cash increased their blocksize to reduce transaction fees, but since they are a minority chain the lackluster adoption means it's not widely available for commerce.

Probably the biggest flaw in the entire "be your own bank" concept was underestimating how little people care about privacy. I mean, they claim to care and they get "outraged" whenever XYZ company gets caught harvesting their data without their consent or whatever, but in the end they don't actually care and happily will fork it over for a few pennies worth of goodies. Maybe there is a future where privacy becomes more important to consumers, but for now if you tell most anyone that their bank is looking at all their transactions and selling that data to someone their answers will range from "don't care" to "make some regulation" - neither of which really seem to move the needle or solve anything.

With regards to where to have discussions: I don't know. I have unsubbed from every subreddit and forum that primarily covers crypto. They are mostly all echo chambers now that just try to rally the troops against whatever they perceive their "enemy" or practice sketchy censorship and misinformation. A part of me doesn't really like "giving up" like this because it's well known there are many actors in the space that are actively trying to disrupt and manipulate the conversation, but at the same time I only have limited time on this rock and would prefer to do things I enjoy.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#257

Post by anonymoushn »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #241
anonymoushn wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, you cannot send wire transfers to Japan on weekends in a couple seconds. So the problem is not solved in Europe. Posting "there's no technical reason why every bank cant coordinate to provide a non-terrible experience eventually in a hundred years" is not helpful. We have working international settlements for any origin to any destination for any amount of money in seconds today.

Proposing cryptocurrencies as somehow uniquely capable of solving this problem is incorrect. Furthermore, there are also valid reasons why payments may take longer when crossing certain national boundaries. E.g. KYC/AML checks and so forth.

I do not propose cryptocurrencies as uniquely capable of solving the problem. I propose them as actually solving the problem today. Similarly, I don't propose that you *couldn't* travel internationally using a personal jetpack or an ornithopter. I just think that a passenger jet is a likely to be better choice for now.

My experience with international wire transfers so far is that KYC/AML performed at the time of the transaction is cursory. They're just slow because I have to wait for business hours at the sending bank, then wait for the bank to call me (if it's my personal bank rather than my business bank which just sends them automatically), then wait for the funds to make their way to the recipient through intermediary banks who will skim off an unknowable-up-front amount of money.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#258

Post by carl_misj »

svennek wrote: post #3

I think basically because there is nothing interesting left to discus. One camp (where I am in) basically believes it is an environmental disaster, unsuitable for its stated purpose and most likely as scam by the "whales" manipulating the price, and with a potential 51%-disaster. The other camp believes that it is the future of money, untraceable wealth storage and inflation/"confiscation proof" and that all the envi…

> the more technically apt they are, the less they believe in it

your network seem to be opposite of general population, where less technically apt less believe (economists, news people, etc.)

i suspect it has more to do with political leaning, i.e. more center-conformist less believe, outside center more believe

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#259

Post by ryan_lane »

reginold wrote: post #223
malermeister wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I think this is exactly why there's not much of a discussion. There's folks that are really excited about what you described, no doubt. But then there's folks like me that think that vision of commodification of everything is a dystopian nightmare that devalues humanity by forcing everything into an economic corset. I fundamentally don't want financial stakes tied to anything, in my world view we'd ideally move pa…

Oh appreciate your thoughts here! I can certainly agree that it can sound dystopian. Let's talk about how to make sure it's net positive! How do we built things better, where do we improve, what are the weaknesses? To me the rise of cryptocurrencies is a given -- so the role of being curious is about shaping what it becomes, rather than deny their impending dominance. (Not putting words in your mouth, if anything thi…

> Let's talk about how to make sure it's net positive! How do we built things better, where do we improve, what are the weaknesses?

I think what puts people at odds here is that the conversation on your side is "how can we improve the model we're creating" while the other side's conversation is "we don't want this model at all".

Wrapping everything in a financial model is like giving us handcuffs to wear, then asking how you can make the handcuffs more comfortable.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#260

Post by reginold »

ddtaylor wrote: post #256
reginold wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a place I can go to talk to people like you? Or maybe you but before you totally disconnected? I'm curious what your hopes were for being your own bank kinda stuff. How did you imagine it would work, what was important about that to you... and the the other side, what fell short etc. You rightfully probably don't want to answer these questions as your curiosity has moved on, but I would be curious in case yo…

The hope was that consumer adoption would be more broad and people would have little incentive to keep their money in silos/banks because the security offered by regular wallets would be enough. In a world where most businesses accept crypto directly banks would be relegated to their proper function: facilitating loans. Consumer adoption was going pretty well until the technical hurdles were hit. Each blockchain hand…

Appreciate the thoughtful response. I've also found the subreddits to be echo chambers. I am looking for more curious places.

Regarding be your own bank -- agree that $25/transaction doesn't make sense, and that this a regular occurrence on bitcoin and ethereum. Does not seem like layer 1 will be in a position to solve this ever. Could take a decade for level 2 to get there. Inevitable though?

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