Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#221

Post by catshirt » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

posterboy wrote: post #143

catshirt wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

woah... woah. don't cut off that sentence. > I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted. the point is not that "i get every job i interviewed for because i'm that good" -- i think the point is "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview". i can say with certainty it has nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing i can attribute to offers…

> the point is not that "i get every job i interviewed for because i'm that good" I'm not reading that in the quoted comment. But still > "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview". why lead with that, to display confidence? Very well, interesting though that confidence is the argument to be made and so the presentation of the response has to agree with the argument. But that still lac…

> Interesting, I'm not aware of the difference. I'd say ambition subsumes enthusiasm.

i can understand where your coming from: there is probably truth to the idea that... in general, if you are ambitious you will be enthusiastic or vice versa. but:

1. they are not mutually exclusive. to apply for a job you are underqualified for and disinterested in would be both ambitious and unenthusiastic. in practice this might not really happen but...

2. for the purpose of the interview, any enthusiasm is useless if you don't have the charisma to project it. ambition is more of a factor for you to internalize. it is relative to your own experience. enthusiasm is different. it's more important to externalize. i care if i'm ambitious, the interviewer cares if i'm enthusiastic. i don't want to hire someone who doesn't love the job- and if they love it i don't care if they're overqualified (lacking ambition).

> why lead with that, to display confidence?

in my experience, this again is more of an internal thing. it's not that externalizing confidence is valuable (probably more of a liability, really). it's that confidence manifests itself in other ways that are inspiring or attractive. for instance, i am pretty humble and sometimes nervous; i hate selling myself. but when i'm genuinely excited for a position, it's easier to suppress the instinct not to brag.

> that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive ...

your mindset needs to be "i'm really excited to apply for this job because it's totally awesome and i can kick it's ass" -- not "i'm applying for this job because i really hate my current job". the right type of confidence and enthusiasm will only come from the former. i realize this argument is kind of... philosophical?, just trying my best to generalize what's lead to any success i've come by :)

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#222

Post by dahart » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #218

dahart wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? I'm confused what you're asking. I'd say generally avoid ass-kissing, looking desperate and acting over-eager... Did what I said above seem to imply these things? That's not what I intended at all. Are you interested in what I meant?

> Did what I said above seem to imply these things? Well, "they didn't appear to want the job very badly" strikes a nerve as implying that. Why would they need to "want the job very badly" instead of merely "wanting the job"? And "dying for the job" sounds even worse. > Are you interested in what I meant? Sure, but tone matters.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I was only trying to help someone who asked for help. I can't change my experience. The only thing I can do is elaborate on what I meant and provide examples and specifics about what constitutes not appearing to want a job very badly. But you're not asking for those things. Instead, it feels to me like you're trying to pick a fight by jumping to conclusions about my tone, which I don't really know what my tone is as written in text or why it's coming across as so negative to you.

I'm not talking about the difference between just wanting a job and over-acting like it's the only thing in the world. I'm not talking about fawning over the interviewer or pretending like there are no other jobs. I'm talking about people who come into an interview with an overtly negative attitude and say things that make it explicitly clear they could care less about the job and make it explicitly clear that they expect less experienced people to adapt to their ways and not the other way around. This is not the norm of my experience, I am referring to the worst interviews I've ever had, and summarizing the reason in what I thought was diplomatic language.

I suspect you're getting confused by my trying to use mild language and be somewhat nice and forgiving about the kind of interviews I've had. When I say I've interviewed people who don't appear to want the job very badly, I am exaggerating in the positive direction. These (few) people were outright antagonistic to the idea of being adaptable and getting along with others.

There's no way you could know these things based on what I wrote. But there's also no reason you need to assume the worst either.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#223

Post by coldtea » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:39 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #222

coldtea wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did what I said above seem to imply these things? Well, "they didn't appear to want the job very badly" strikes a nerve as implying that. Why would they need to "want the job very badly" instead of merely "wanting the job"? And "dying for the job" sounds even worse. > Are you interested in what I meant? Sure, but tone matters.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I was only trying to help someone who asked for help. I can't change my experience. The only thing I can do is elaborate on what I meant and provide examples and specifics about what constitutes not appearing to want a job very badly. But you're not asking for those things. Instead, it feels to me like you're trying to pick a fight by jumping to conclusions about my tone, which I don't re…

Sorry for being too jumpy to conclusions. I responded to what I read those phrases as suggesting though, couldn't know how it was meant.

Perhaps a better wording would have clarified the whole thing, like: "They should appear interested in getting the job" or "passionate about their profession".

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#224

Post by dahart » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #219

l_t wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody said anything about that. The point is, even if you have experience, you can't phone it in during the interview. If you aren't likeable, many people won't want to hire you no matter how experienced you are. It's just basic psychology.

Asking that people should "appear to want to job very badly" (and on a later comment changed to suggest they should be "dying for the job") is not merely about not phoning it it, or not being likeable.

I didn't change anything, that was a separate point in a separate sub-thread. And I didn't say everyone should be "dying for the job", I replied directly to a person who said "I need a job badly". I'm making the point that if you need the job badly, then it's better to say "I want the job badly" than to say "I need the job badly". It's better to act interested than to appear needy, given that you do want the job badly. I did not say that everyone everywhere should go around ass-kissing like crazy, you are going out of your way to take my words out of context here.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#225

Post by navalsaini » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:46 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #212

coldtea wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Want it badly might likely imply that you're dying to do the job you're applying for, and you're dying to work for this particular company. How about not asking people to be "dying" for the job, but just be professionals? Except if the target audience is starry eyed 20-year olds to exploit. When did merely having a good resume and being professional gone out of fashion?

I agree with you, I was trying to make my point more clear by comparing the extremes, since it's a subtle point. I realize I run the risk of sounding like I'm suggesting people should be open to taking less than they're worth. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that attitude matters, and that's not a trend. Please do keep in mind the context of my words. Parent comment said "I need a job badly". You would…

Hey. Many valid point dahart. I guess, in 30s, one needs more sophisticated ways to project more or less the same things as one in 20s. I read/interpreted your "wanting" a job statement, the wrong way :)

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#226

Post by NumberCruncher » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:58 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #188

The most common reason I've turned down very qualified candidates is that they didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates, and didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the job they were applying for. Some very experienced applicants seem to assume their experience weighs so heavily that their chances of getting the job are better than anyone else's, and that there'…

>> You mentioned that you hate your current job. So my question is whether you're knowingly or unknowingly communicating that during your interviews.

I wanted to ask the same.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#227

Post by NumberSix » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

How long have the onsite interviews been? An in-person interview with at least three people and at least three hours total duration is what I call "a serious interview." At least for software engineers, there seems to be a roughly 1 in 2 to 1 in 3 chance of a job offer if you get a "serious interview." In general, shorter in-person interviews -- say one person for 1/2 to 1 hour are not very serious and can have very low success rate, usually at best they lead to a further "serious interview."

If all seven onsite interviews have been "serious interviews" then zero job offers is a bit low, but still could be just bad luck: 1 chance in 2 to the 7 (128).

That said, mid thirties -- thirty-five to be exact -- is the age where employees in the high technology industry start to report increased difficulties finding jobs. Look around -- not a lot of people who look over thirty-five.

Very few companies seem to be looking for 10+ years of experience. Most job postings on LinkedIn and other job boards will ask for 3-5 or 3-7 years of experience. Some for ten years, but not that many. You state you have twelve (12) years of experience.

It is difficult to know the reasons for this pattern in high tech. Probably all of these contribute:

o conscious and sub-conscious age discrimination

o companies are looking for young people who can work long hours, unpaid overtime. Overall stamina does decline with age. It is also harder to get more experienced people to work unpaid overtime as they recognize what is happening -- aren't fooled by unrealistic schedules, manufactured crunches over trade show appearances, and other deceptions and demand to be paid.

o Companies and managers feel threatened by employees who know a lot, preferring young people with little or limited experience.

US born "native" white men with perfect English report same difficulties frequently. It may have little to do with being Indian or having an accent, although it is surely good advice to work on accent and mastery of American English which differs in a number of ways from Indian English. Indian English is derived from British English in the 1940's and 1950's that was taught in missionary schools in India. There are a lot of web sites and blog posts now on the differences between the two dialects.

Also, if you are on a visa like the H1-B, that can be an issue as well. Probably easier to switch jobs with US permanent residency (green card) or US citizenship.

If you are unhappy with your current job and have trouble leaving it, non-work social activities, physical exercise, and sometimes meditation can be helpful. Unfortunately, under stress it is very easy to cut back on social activities and exercise, but actually you should do the opposite -- increase these -- under sustained stress.

Perhaps talk to some older product managers who are not trying to hire you, colleagues rather than employers, about their experiences and what might be an issue in the job hunt.

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#228

Post by dahart » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 5:33 PM UTC

navalsaini wrote: post #225

dahart wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, I was trying to make my point more clear by comparing the extremes, since it's a subtle point. I realize I run the risk of sounding like I'm suggesting people should be open to taking less than they're worth. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that attitude matters, and that's not a trend. Please do keep in mind the context of my words. Parent comment said "I need a job badly". You would…

Hey. Many valid point dahart. I guess, in 30s, one needs more sophisticated ways to project more or less the same things as one in 20s. I read/interpreted your "wanting" a job statement, the wrong way :)

When multiple people take it a different way than I intended, then I must assume that it's my fault and I did a bad job of communicating my idea.

I could rephrase what I meant to say as simply try to talk less about what you need and talk more about what the company needs. Let the company ask you about what you need.

As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing. It would be a bad idea to tell someone they should date you because you really just want to have sex with someone -- anyone -- right? It's a bad idea to date someone you like who doesn't like you, but agrees to it anyway because you pay for meals. It's a good idea to date someone who likes your personality and looks, and someone who's personality and looks you like, someone who you genuinely want to learn more about and look forward to talking to every day.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#229

Post by ma2rten » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

throwawaynxtday wrote: post #147

sonirico wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for curiosity, I would like to hear your thoughts about western europeans ;)

I would like to hear your thoughts on: * Israeli jewish people * non-Israeli (eg US) jewish people (edit: Formatting)

For American Jews, I think the stereotype is that they are rich and well connected.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#230

Post by futhey » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 7:20 PM UTC

Fellow PM. It's really hard to get this feedback from people making a real hiring decision, because any experienced HR professional knows the legal liabilities of slipping up and saying the wrong thing, or mis-representing the actual reason why you were not chosen for a position.

If I were in this position (I've done something similar for a friend in the Design industry), I would:

1.) find someone in your LinkedIn network in a senior PM or PM management position from your chosen industry, 2.) send them a few job reqs. from positions where you have applied, your resume, etc. 3.) do a couple short mock interviews (10m-15m) 4.) discuss patterns that emerge, and compare / contrast your experiences in previous interviews.

Likely, this person can be totally upfront and honest about his/her impressions, and how he would frame his hiring decision, or anything that may jump out as to why you might be getting a lot of `NO`s.

Best of luck in the job hunt!