I feel the same way from Canada and that’s why I’m going to leave the country. It’s humiliating to talk to my American coworkers about my personal life
Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
211–220 of 385 posts
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
because it's not the only factor in hiring? competency and likelihood to succeed in the role does still play a role
Sure, but why is a company willing to suddenly pay more for someone depending on where they live? I get that competency and likelihood to succeed play a role, but if you have those I don't see why location should play a role at all. I'm not saying they should give more/better offers to people in 'cheap' locations, I'm saying location shouldn't influence the offer at all.
Competence is a continuous spectrum. People in its upper reaches are disproportionately likely to have already moved to talent hubs where their earning potential is highest, or to have acquired their competence working at companies there (and put down roots). Because they are still in talent hubs & have access to those markets, you cannot get them for less than talent-hub pay.
So you either: a) write off every candidate who is still in talent hubs, b) pay way above everyone else's competing offers so that your universal salary is also competitive in talent hubs, or c) pay based on location.
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Making Bay Area offers to rural candidates is giving them 4-5x their next best option, which is characteristic of either a) the devil, or b) rich people making expressive displays rather than business transactions. No? If you budget to hire two employees at Bay Area salaries and don't care where they work, you should pay them Bay Area salaries regardless of where they work. Plenty of companies do this. It's fine. I…
But if you can hire two people from anywhere, why budget may area salaries?
Because then you won't be hiring people from the Bay Area -- or me.
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds like you should hire Canadians!
We do have a Canadian office, in fact, though admittedly I don't think our company makes any effort to hire from there. At least nobody in my division of the company resides in Canada. Yet. One of my immediate coworkers is holds dual US/Canadian citizenship by birth and he is in the process of transferring his employment to the Canadian office because he is uncomfortable with increasingly acrimonious tribal politics…
How much is the pay differential between the US and Canada offices?
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Making Bay Area offers to rural candidates is giving them 4-5x their next best option, which is characteristic of either a) the devil, or b) rich people making expressive displays rather than business transactions. No? If you budget to hire two employees at Bay Area salaries and don't care where they work, you should pay them Bay Area salaries regardless of where they work. Plenty of companies do this. It's fine. I…
If employers stop getting the candidates they want with location-based offers, they will go away. Right now people may grumble, but they sign. Like OP did. Making a Bay Area offer when you could just as well have closed the candidate with a locally competitive offer doesn't make business sense. It is exactly an expression of the company's values: that it thinks paying people the same is inherently, morally good. Whic…
> If employers stop getting the candidates they want with location-based offers, they will go away. Right now people may grumble, but they sign. Like OP did.
Yes, which is why I recommend not accepting location-based pay. It works!
> Making a Bay Area offer when you could just as well have closed the candidate with a locally competitive offer doesn't make business sense.
Sure it does. If your revenue isn't locale dependent then it makes perfect business sense. Obviously if you're selling local McRuralTown widgets for McRuralTown denizens and the cost of living in McRuralTown is peanuts then this won't work for you, but you're probably going to have a hard time hiring smart software people.
> If the company ever needs to trim its sails, then reverting to location-based pay would be a natural step.
Typically this is a non-reversible policy. Reverting to locale-based pay is a suicide pill unless you're churning your entire workforce, in which case the pill is likely already between your teeth.
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine paying someone in my town where the median income is $39k and the median property value is $87k the same as someone in San Fran where the median income is $120k and the median property value is $1.15M. that would be unfair to everyone in my town who can't work remotely with a tech company that's in that area.
This doesn't make any sense. Your pay should be based on the value you provide to the company you work for.. Not based on whether it is fair to your neighbor or not.
Even from a lefty perspective: people vary wildly in the value they produce. A society that paid based on output would be as if not more unequal than today's. Plus it does nothing for the people who need money to live but can't or don't do economic production: children, elderly, disabled, caregivers, etc. Socialists will sometimes emphasize the share of productivity captured by capital to argue for redistribution to labor as a class, but for individuals to be paid their own productivity is AFAICT not any serious movement's demand.
And then obviously from the capitalist perspective, your employment only exists to the extent that the employer derives more value from your work than they pay you.
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
#217Well, its mostly your fault. Start demanding more, if you are locked into your current job and can't see yourself getting a raise, move on somewhere else. I was stuck with low European salaries in my first year as Developer. In my second year I quadruppled that salary by setting my lower limit 4x higher and moved to south-east Asia to lower my cost of living by half. My old-colleagues are still complaining about the high costs of living back home, and the low salaries as well. While they would actually be more senior and even more productive in the job I got after leaving them.
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Source: we are a Canadian company, and hire from everywhere but the US. I don't follow. This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm. If you work for a Canadian company that doesn't hire in the US then you're comically underpaid. Wages are converging very fast. Many companies are paying parity and frankly folks are selling…
> This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm. Probably only after they get to a certain scale and cannot find more talent in Canada? When did Shopify start hiring in the US - right from the beginning?
No? If I started a company in Canada tomorrow, why would I reduce my talent pool and not look at the US? Most startups are eschewing offices in an obvious move for cash-strapped businesses. If you're hiring remote then borders should be a mild nuisance at worst, and at best a force multiplier.
Example: Show me a startup in the YC job board based in Canada (there are many these days) that is hiring locally only for software engineers.
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
If employers stop getting the candidates they want with location-based offers, they will go away. Right now people may grumble, but they sign. Like OP did. Making a Bay Area offer when you could just as well have closed the candidate with a locally competitive offer doesn't make business sense. It is exactly an expression of the company's values: that it thinks paying people the same is inherently, morally good. Whic…
> If employers stop getting the candidates they want with location-based offers, they will go away. Right now people may grumble, but they sign. Like OP did. Yes, which is why I recommend not accepting location-based pay. It works! > Making a Bay Area offer when you could just as well have closed the candidate with a locally competitive offer doesn't make business sense. Sure it does. If your revenue isn't locale dep…
>If your revenue isn't locale dependent then it makes perfect business sense.
The delta between the wage needed to get & keep the candidate vs. the wage you're actually paying them is essentially a charitable donation here. Of course businesses regularly do philanthropy, nothing wrong with that. Their own upper-middle-class employees are a weird choice of beneficiary though.
Business sense would be to keep the money and put it towards its most productive use, like hiring another employee or procuring labor-saving technology.
Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?
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