Most jobs - especially in software - produce very little or no value. There are a couple things you can do: - Accept it, do as little work as you can get away with, and find fulfillment outside your job. Maybe get a stand-up desk and do some light exercise while working, to ease the feeling of wasting your time. - Find a useful job. Non-profits, government services, and research organizations are good places to look,…
> do some light exercise I’m somewhat convinced if everybody did this we would have far less problems. So far this year I’ve kept that resolution, swimming 1250 meters Monday-Friday. It improves my sleep and helps my diet too. My ability to ward off negative thought patterns is the main difference affecting my mood.
Ask HN: Is it just me or do 99% of SWE jobs offers seem completely pointless?
171–180 of 214 posts
Re: Ask HN: Is it just me or do 99% of SWE jobs offers seem completely pointless?
#172You might be slightly depressed but that's not everything. The truth is that most software companies are...pointless. They're sales driven body shops talking about "mission". I really like my job - work on innovative product lines with a small close knit team. I got here by just working on ideas/probelms that interested me and selling that company to the current one. Go do something you like. Also go to a therapist.
> The truth is that most software companies are...pointless. They're sales driven body shops talking about "mission". Most jobs are pointless in the global scheme of things.
First, I disagree you should measure mans life on global scale, and secondly I disagree jobs are pointless.
The meaning to many jobs comes from the impact to the community, the people around the employee - "stakeholder value" is the term someone would use. Nurse, cleaner, garbage car driver, teacher, doctor, airplane pilot - all have impactful jobs that create a physical and psychological imprint on the world.
If you seek global impact - I don't think a single human being can have much of that - and seeking global scale effects reeks of megalomania.
Re: Ask HN: Is it just me or do 99% of SWE jobs offers seem completely pointless?
#173I'd recommend pivoting into security engineering. Security engineering, even at big tech companies, can be fulfilling as you are often protecting dissidents, journalists, and human rights activists from surveillance. Even at companies like facebook, you can work on protecting dissidents [2] while contributing very little to the company's ad business. There are also opportunities that pay well at non-profits like Amne…
Any tips for getting into this with only a standard development background?
Re: Ask HN: Is it just me or do 99% of SWE jobs offers seem completely pointless?
#174I watched Good Will Hunting recently and was struck by this scene ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQBHkzOYvw ), particularly these lines: WILL What do you mean "cop out?" I mean, w-w-what's wrong with layin' brick? SEAN Nothing. WILL There's nothing wrong---That's some-- That's somebody's home I'm building. SEAN Right. My dad laid brick. Okay? Busted his ass so I could have an education. WILL Exactly. That's an ho…
Re: Ask HN: Is it just me or do 99% of SWE jobs offers seem completely pointless?
#175- All work is meaningless, so I started seeking the ones that pay the most (banks, hedges, FAANGs).
- By making a lot of money early, I plan to soft retire in five years (with 35) - I will take a loooong vacation, then work as a freelancer / consultant as I please.
- Without the fear of starving or being old without cash, I will pursue stuff I like.
PM me in five years and I will tell you whether I succeeded.
Re: Ask HN: Is it just me or do 99% of SWE jobs offers seem completely pointless?
#176I’m 46 years old now. I’ve felt as you have since my first corporate job at 21. I have contemplated “offing myself” as you say. But obviously I’m still here! Seems to me your reaction to the world is appropriate and correct. The world we’ve created for ourselves is devoid of meaning. Most work is performative, and entirely pointless, IME. So you need to make your own meaning. A significant-other helps. As do pets, an…
Sounds interesting. Do you have tips on how to get and stay into the Zen mindset when there are deadlines?
Re: Ask HN: Is it just me or do 99% of SWE jobs offers seem completely pointless?
#177> People who have really great jobs(not talking about money ofc), how did you find them?
It's been a whole construction of myself really, and I feel like it's still going on.
- When I was younger, I used to see only the flaws in things, and I was never happy with anything. Later on, I managed to discover that nothing's perfect, but most things have good aspects, and it's all about a balance. And even that sometimes, good things need bad things to be good.
- My first job was at a smartphone OEM, where we released new models at stupidly fast pace, with very little quality. I felt I was very helpful, because the devices would ship anyway, whether I was there or not, and I helped improved the quality of the device. I had direct contact with users and RMA, and I felt useful for each individual I managed to help. However, as I said, the devices we released were pretty bad (but dirt cheap, pretty much stealing money from shareholders to give it to customers), and I witnessed how those decisions were made, and why. Really, that was putting in real-world my economy lessons. If there is some way to make more money, this path will be taken, no matter how benevolent the involved people are. Business incentives are everything. For that company, the aim was to sell to supermarkets, which only care about specs over price ratio, and nothing else. So it optimized specs over price, and made device that were unusable in 3 months.
Once, I understood that business incentive are everything, I went to a sector without the business incentive to output models as fast as possible, but the exact opposite. In France, ISPs provide the home gateway and the tvbox, as part of the subscription. So ISP wants to provide the best service, without replacing the user's hardware every year, because it costs the ISP money, so they keep software upgraded and optimized as long as possible.
- So I went to a new job (not gonna lie, I didn't exactly choose that one), for the biggest french ISP. I initially was afraid of the very big corp (Bigger than Google), but I still did go. I still learnt many things technically, and felt that what I was doing could be useful. Well I was right being afraid of big corp, because well, what I did never became actually used. But still, I learnt a lot again on how companies work, and while I initially have a bad opinion of big corps, I didn't have actual reasons to have those bad opinions, now I do! I even realized how and why big corps are not necessarily a bad thing for the world. But definitely not a good match for me at my age. I can't really sum up those things I learned, but there has been one metaphor that convey parts of it. A big corp is a galley. It's pretty slow by modern standards, but it can pretty reliably go anywhere. There is a captain, but if everyone paddle backwards, the ship doesn't go where the captain wants it to go. Really, the ship, simply goes to the mean of where the people paddling want the ship to go. This means that there is no real decision ever made by one person, but that decisions emerge from flock behavior. (Not sure that metaphor works really well, but anyway)
So I left that job. I still wanted that business incentive to do "good" things. I turned to a company that I liked when I was younger, even though back then I didn't even envision going there, which is a much smaller ISP. So I erased the ecological cost, and the horrible UX of my first job, and went to a company-style that suits me more.
I'm definitely happier with my job than before. I still see dark dots here and there, and I still dream of what I could do next (An Android-based OS for any smartphones, with real competitive market for all apps and services, with business incentives to keep upgrading Android on smartphones for as long as possible), so it's not all white, and I think it's still likely I'll move to another job later, but I'll know what I'm trading.
So, I initially said I don't know what to recommend you, I'll try anyway: - Never regret taking any job, but instead, focus on what you learned from that experience. I tried that job, because of XXX, turns out XXX was actually a bad idea for me, but that job had YYY that I didn't expect, and YYY was good, so maybe I should focus on looking for YYY. - Focus on things you want from a company, rather on things you won't to evade - You could try looking for companies based on things you think should be done. Like for instance "it would be nice to help musicians sell their music without fighting labels". Well, based on that you should go work for bandcamp! - Don't hesitate to go "off-road": If based on previous item you think things unrelated to SWE, like if you think saving whales is important, well it's likely there is a whales-saving organization who would welcome a web maintainer, even if they are not actively looking for it, so go ask them.
Anyway, I wish you a good luck finding your path
Re: Ask HN: Is it just me or do 99% of SWE jobs offers seem completely pointless?
#178To do that, I spent weeks comparing one map to another to find minor issues, wrote 100s of pages of documentation I'm sure only the project lead and a lawyer read; spent a week reformatting it from bullets to tables at the managers request and then putting it back to bullets for the lawyer; spent 6 months dragging and dropping in a GUI work flow tool on a product I know exactly 2 people used; had to fly 12 hours on 3 different plans to a tiny Midwest city every other week, missing my wife and new born son every moment; write nothing but data entry forms for a year on a terrible back end and then spend another year converting those forms to a slightly different backend; have 90% of the work I did thrown out without reaching operation because two bureaucrats got into a fight; and spent an enormous part of my time trying to figure out how to configure networks when I hate networking.
Every single one of my "good" jobs that I found meaning in is because I choose to find meaning in it. I may have been doing something pointless or icky, but I actively choose to have faith that it was going to advance the larger project I'd signed up for.
Some jobs suck because of a toxic culture or individuals. I've had that happen and removing ones self from the environment is the right way to progress.
Most often though jobs, including software engineering jobs, aren't toxic, just boring some/most of the time. Often the realities of making money feel icky too. That's normal. For me though, so long as I find value in the overall thrust of what my project / company is doing I find myself relying on faith that whatever menial task I'm working on probably moves us closer to the big goals. Although I still try to make sure to eliminate pointless tasks once they've been demonstrated to be pointless.
I think you are likely depressed, but I think I read downthread you are seeing someone for that. I suspect also you need to work on identifying what you value and create priorities. It sounds like money is not a major motivator/priority right now for you. What are you motivated by? What is important to you?
It's quite possibly not in software engineering right now. My wife's team had a mechanical engineer decide they were burnt out and go work an assembly line for 4 years. They took a 30-40% paycut but we're happier. Then they got bored of that and came back to engineering. I've have college friends who decided not to use thier (expensive) degrees because they decided they wanted to do something else more and none seem to regret it, even if they could have made more money in their degree area.
Also consider working in the public sector. The work isn't necessarily any more interesting and the pay can be lower but "squeezing out profit" isn't generally what you are doing.
There is also the answer that work is just work- many people find thier fulfillment outside of paid work and just accept that they'd rather do mental drudgery in an office then physical drudgery in a warehouse, truck, or field. Even though I generally enjoy work I enjoy my family and non work passions more and have regretted everytime I choose to prioritize work over them for more than a couple days at a time.
In sum, figure out what you about, try to view work differently, and maybe try something different for work.