Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 340 posts

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#141

Post by TallGuyShort »

bsenftner wrote: post #53

"Back in the day" the BASIC language made sense, as it was right at your prompt in text based interfaces. The same situation today is the web browser, and the ability to open up the developer's console and getting direct access to a web site's JavaScript, html & CSS. Forget BASIC, and introduce your kids to web developing. They will "get it" much faster than "boring dumb BASIC, can't do web stuff, it sucks."

Some basic scripting is probably still a good starting place for younger kids to wrap their minds around syntax, basic constructs, etc. Dropping them in the DOM right away is probably in the deep end, too much, although I'd agree getting them there quickly opens a lot of fun and practical doors faster than almost anything else.

edit: Second the suggestion of Python below, even if it's just for a few months to learn the basics of coding in general. Pivoting a few months in to a new environment is also hard in and of itself, but that's the path I'd go. As a little bonus, then you don't get too stuck in one way of thinking :)

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#142

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

astrodust wrote: post #135
bdamm wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. Javascript requires all kinds of knowledge to get started; what does this code mean, how do you hook it into a page, what is DOM, etc. That's a lot to ask of a 10-yr old. Meanwhile, any 10-yr old can understand this code: 10 PRINT "Hey there Joe" 20 GOTO 10 Boom. Functional program. Instant gratification. That will be the last program this person ever writes that provides such instant reward, but neverm…

I can teach someone how to make a button blink in JavaScript in ten minutes. I don't have to explain what line numbers are. I only have to teach some very rudimentary HTML. From there they can absorb more knowledge and do really cool things. That BASIC program is garbage and nobody cares. Seeing your name on a screen doesn't carry the same thrill it did in 1985. Show someone PONG today and they will wonder if you're…

You both have a point. When I showed a text-mode adventure to a kid, their reaction was "Really? Why would anyone play such a thing these days?"

On the other hand, getting started with toy twoliners involving a question and a simple arithmetic answer can spark some interest. The effect is augmented if what you type can have an immediate effect on hardware like in the case of Duinomite where the inerpreter is running on the MCU itself and doesn't need uploading like on the Arduinos or Mindstorms.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#143

Post by itomato »

teddyh wrote: post #79
normalhuman wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too grew up with a "power on to basic" computer, in my case the ZX Spectrum. I don't think that people that did not have that experience at that age can truly get it. I was able to create graphics and play sounds with a very simple language. The text editor, the graphical display, the "OS", it was all the same thing. The manual taught you how to program in BASIC. It was an amazing tool of creativity and intellectua…

Your personal experience is not the only correct one. I assure you that the people coming before you, making their own computers out of chips and resistors with a soldering iron, would say the same thing about you. And people who grew up with Windows 98 say the same thing about people only exposed to iOS and Android, and so on.

They are all more justified than the person who claims Swift playground on an iPad is the pinnacle of CS for Primary School.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#144

Post by dmlorenzetti »

fusiongyro wrote: post #13

I would suggest checking out the Micro:bit: https://www.microbit.org/ Not exactly the same as what you're looking for, but the idea here is to introduce kids to programming with a small, self-contained environment, and there is both a graphical coding environment and you can move to Python or Javascript.

Micro:bit has a lot going for it.

Comes with a 5x5 LED array, an accelerometer, two physical push-buttons, three capacitive sensors, and a bluetooth antenna, already on-board. It means you can start programming without having to plug in to a breadboard and wire up your inputs. You can also hang external sensors and actuators off of it, but the point is you don't need to in order to move beyond toy demonstrations.

It was designed specifically for education, so there are lots of beginner-oriented tutorials available, as well as educator-oriented lesson plans.

As fusiongyro points out, you can program it using three high-level languages. The graphical language lets you toggle to the Javascript version, so there's a clear learning path built-in. These provide high-level commands, such as "get the orientation", or "get the number of button presses since the last query", which makes programming it very straightforward.

It removes a lot of toolchain fussiness. Just run an online editor, or a desktop editor (Mu). These produce binaries that you drag onto the Micro:bit, which mounts to your desktop like an external drive. You can also program it from a smart phone or iPad.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#145

Post by jschwartzi »

zimpenfish wrote: post #5

> Plug it into TV, turn it on and you're in basic and can start programming. No reason why someone couldn't create a Pi installation which does that - RetroPie boots into the game console screen, after all. BasicPie could just as easily boot into a Basic / Lua / Pico8 interpreter. (Get a normal Pi install with X and set Scratch to be the startup/only X app? Would that work?)

In Ubuntu you'd just use console 1-6 instead of console 7. Console 1 is typically a terminal, while console 7 is typically a GUI. You could configure getty to start a REPL as a shell instead of the normal login shell.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#146

Post by astrodust »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #142
astrodust wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can teach someone how to make a button blink in JavaScript in ten minutes. I don't have to explain what line numbers are. I only have to teach some very rudimentary HTML. From there they can absorb more knowledge and do really cool things. That BASIC program is garbage and nobody cares. Seeing your name on a screen doesn't carry the same thrill it did in 1985. Show someone PONG today and they will wonder if you're…

You both have a point. When I showed a text-mode adventure to a kid, their reaction was "Really? Why would anyone play such a thing these days?" On the other hand, getting started with toy twoliners involving a question and a simple arithmetic answer can spark some interest. The effect is augmented if what you type can have an immediate effect on hardware like in the case of Duinomite where the inerpreter is running…

If you want to get kids engaged, Minecraft is the best learning environment out there.

You can get a computer that runs Lua in the game, and that thing can interact with devices and the environment.

You can write a couple of lines of code that spawns pigs. From there anything's possible.

Subjecting someone to the ridiculously spartan environment that is the READY prompt is the polar opposite of encouraging.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#147

Post by itomato »

ziaddotcom wrote: post #85
gowld wrote: post #19

What's the point? "Power on to BASIC" is running an app on an old small OS. What's wrong with running any programming environment app fullscreen on a modern computer?

Nothing wrong with it. However, I think an 8 year old seeing a 30 year old computer turn on instantly to the same thing a supposed "better computer" takes 10 minutes to boot to might surprise and teach them something. I think your question, although sincere, is a variation of "why not give a child a 4 wheel drive suv instead of a silly old go cart?"

Kids simply like Kid-sized things.

They are accommodating. They fit. They are easy to master.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#148

Post by abritinthebay »

astrodust wrote: post #136
itomato wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going back to a world where free and open software was the norm would be a mistake? Being able to buy one of a half-dozen or more periodicals with informative commentary on an accessible programming language would be a mistake? Empowering a generation of STEM learners with a basic programming language centered around the bedrock of computer science would be a mistake? Safely and easily gaining first-hand experience w…

If you think BASIC was free and open have I got a letter from Bill Gates to show you. GCC is free and open. Clang is free and open. BASIC is commercial, proprietary, closed-source software. The "bedrock of computer science" is machine code, or if you're not a fan of reading and writing hex values or flipping physical switches on your Altair, then assembly. Everything after that is an abstraction.

LOL what? BASIC has been around since before Microsoft was even a glint in Gates & Allen’s eyes. Since 1964 to be exact.

While many 8-bit versions of BASIC were derived from MS BASIC (1975) it was hardly Microsoft’s baby. Atari BASIC for example has zero to do with MS. Neither does TinyBASIC

BASIC itself is absolutely free. Certain implementations are not.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#149

Post by postalrat »

astrodust wrote: post #135
bdamm wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. Javascript requires all kinds of knowledge to get started; what does this code mean, how do you hook it into a page, what is DOM, etc. That's a lot to ask of a 10-yr old. Meanwhile, any 10-yr old can understand this code: 10 PRINT "Hey there Joe" 20 GOTO 10 Boom. Functional program. Instant gratification. That will be the last program this person ever writes that provides such instant reward, but neverm…

I can teach someone how to make a button blink in JavaScript in ten minutes. I don't have to explain what line numbers are. I only have to teach some very rudimentary HTML. From there they can absorb more knowledge and do really cool things. That BASIC program is garbage and nobody cares. Seeing your name on a screen doesn't carry the same thrill it did in 1985. Show someone PONG today and they will wonder if you're…

You want the Lego set with a bunch of custom blocks to make the perfect model. Other people want the generic set of blocks.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#150

Post by F00Fbug »

simion314 wrote: post #87
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #18

Raspberry PI cab be said to be evolved from a ~ power-on-to-BASIC computer; to wit: the (BBC) Acorn Archimedes. You can still get RISC OS for it even. Basically, you power on; hit F12; *BASIC >_ and bob's your uncle: you get a nice BBC BASIC prompt at the bottom of your screen. https://www.riscosopen.org/content/downloads/raspberry-pi (that said, why not use pi + python? It's the new BASIC. And it supports turtle gra…

>why not use pi + python? Do you have experience with teaching python to kids? I am afraid to try it with my son because white space is important, I tried only Scratch and making him think as "a machine" is hard enough adding syntax errors on top would make the job much harder, let me know if you have experience with this and if you think I am wrong.

https://www.utrgv.edu/cstem/_files/documents/snake-wrangling...
Post reply on HN