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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#131

Post by wink »

I don't even think you're wrong - at some point I actually enjoyed many of those things you list. But either it's being 5-15 years older now or enjoying that I don't have the flu several times per year or saving 60-90 minutes of commute every single day... between all these things I don't miss my coworkers enough that I want to go back to this. This may sound unfair to my current coworkers, but some gigs are somehow special and you make friends that you want to meet in the evening twice a week, and sometimes you just don't.

I see advantages and disadvantages for both, and if we could completely ignore covid I guess I'd still hold my stance of "if the office is not too far and I see a worth in being there in person, I'd like a 2-3 or 1-4 split every week". Depends on your job I guess, with the way my team works 5 days in the office would be actively detrimental as we're basically on zoom calls with different people of the team a lot (we don't have one project/product, but several small ones).

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#132

Post by kayodelycaon »

jrmg wrote: post #59

I think a lot of people have genuinely just forgotten what they liked about office-based work. We returned to the office part-time recently, and the sentiment of ‘I’d forgotten how great it was just seeing everyone in person!’ is often expressed. I’ve certainly felt it. Would be interested to hear if that’s a common thought amongst folks here who’ve also returned.

It really depends how good your company's office is. Every time I fly in to my company's main office, it's hell. There is quite literally no way to get productive work done until everyone else leaves the office. I found out my junior coworkers had been doing exactly that pre-pandemic.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#133

Post by cmiles74 »

adamhp wrote: post #87
munchausen42 wrote: post #73

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

In my opinion, it's the employers that are pushing us to view these as two opposing extremes. I suspect this is because for so long (as long as I can remember) they've had all of the power and control.

Clearly something more personal is the best solution, there's likely also an age component here as well. I know that with a child it's much more convenient to be at home most of the time.

Now that employers have given up some control, I bet it seems risky to a lot of people to start talking about going back to the office even one day a week. In my own experience, that small concession could easily lead to my employer pushing harder and before I know it, I'm looking at commuting for 90 minutes each day and sitting at a desk Monday through Friday: back where I started.

If employers want to retain talent and get some people to spend more time in the office, I think they should make some concessions to make that attractive. Putting some dollars in to offset the commute (and not just gas, maybe just pay people as if they were at work). Maybe throw away the old mid-height cube system and put something in that's taller and more like an individual office, etc. I'm sure other people have ideas out there, but just asking us to "go back" isn't reasonable.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#134

Post by commandlinefan »

fny wrote: post #7

First, they'll send your work home, then, they'll send your work abroad. People are too drunk on work from home having experienced it for the first time. I have done it for years. It has its pros and cons. I agree a huge reckoning is coming for white collar work writ large. (1) It can be more easily outsourced. (2) It's easier to fire someone you don't see every working day.

> then, they'll send your work abroad

They've been trying for at least 25 years now. If they can, they will - and whether I'm sitting in an office or at home when it happens, it won't factor into their decision.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#136

Post by shmatt »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #21

I miss the office. More work got done and less time was spent on stupid shit. Sadly my company's office is being renovated, so I don't think I can go until next summer earliest, but I will be there as soon as possible. Remote workers can go and pretend to work elsewhere.

I envy your perception. My office days were people coding for 20 minutes, then going to talk about fantasy football for another 40 minutes. Im proud to say I haven't heard any fantasy football discussion since spring of 2020

Meetings took 15 minutes to start because you had to physically look for people around the office and drag them in

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#138

Post by shapefrog »

omgomgomgomg wrote: post #122

I am all for wfh, but now as a part owner of a business which is growing fast enough so most customer facing staff cant keep up, I am considering a hybrid. The knowledge just does not propagate and all the colab apps in the world will not help if you have 3 shifts. Virtual meetings with cams off or even on, you dont know if the people follow. I dislike paying for an office but it seems unavoidable. I dont think half…

> if you have 3 shifts

Unless all 3 shifts are occuring at the same time in the same place, which would be 1 shift, you have the exact same problem. Your different shifts are physically seperated and are not even online at the same time as each other - thus knowledge transfer etc must be done with a method that does not involve sitting next to the other person at the same time. Even mroe restrictive than wfo/wfh where workers are working physically seperated at the same time.

As for not working instead of working and not paying attention in meetings - that is a whole different problem (having been at in-person meetings where collegues have fallen asleep - it is by no means exclusive to wfh). Ultimately that is where the overpaid middle managers are meant to be earing their wages.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#139

Post by bodge5000 »

adamhp wrote: post #87
munchausen42 wrote: post #73

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

> Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living space

Advocates of WFH rarely care if people want to work in an office if they want to, as long as they don't have to.

So that'd be "Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, able to work 8 hours a day from their living space or an office if they'd prefer"

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#140

Post by ihateolives »

Joker_vD wrote: post #101
adamhp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

Now throw in the fact that the workers may also have family (spouse + a little kid) living with them and present inside the house during the working hours. Suddenly, the idea to have a physically distinct place dedicated (almost) exclusively to work sounds very attractive and very sensible. Of course, one could have a dedicated "study"/"office" room with a lock and sound proofing but that costs.

Now throw in minimum 0.5h + 0.5h commute or more realistically at least 1.5h total commuting time and suddenly you leave for work before your kids wake up and arrive back home 2-3h before they go to sleep.

Who do you want to spend more time during the day, your coworker Bill the senior Java guy or your child Charlie, who has just learned to walk but you were not there to see their first steps? I mean, Bill's a great guy, but I didn't marry the company.

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