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Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

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Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#121

Post by chernevik »

mikeryan wrote: post #98
ia wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain your first sentence? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not defending bigotry/sexism/etc. Hopefully, you didn't take my comment that way.

I'm not defending bigotry/sexism/etc You're defending the ad. By extension defending any sexism contained within it (actual sexism TBD).

I'm pretty sure that when I defend the right of, say, OWS to protest, I'm not defending whatever it is they're protesting.

They went for a breezy tone and forgot to pass it through Legal. I doubt they're sexists. I'm sure sexism would, in this day and age, hurt them more than anyone else.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#122

Post by jessedhillon »

davidhansen wrote: post #92
mattmanser wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason there's a law against it is because bigots that still exist keep women from attaining equality and that's bad, not the other way around. It is in itself bad. You have a strange moral compass to me. I know it's fun to be laddish when you're at college and uni, but cultural fit can often be a polite way of saying 'Hey, I'm a bigot, women are stupid and I'm not employing them above the level of secretary!'. I…

This is not a political site so I'm not going to debate the merits/drawbacks of outlawing bigotry in hiring practices. But one thing that ought to be pointed out is that free markets tend to punish companies, over the long term, that intentionally deny themselves access to talent due to bigotry. Conversely, companies who acquire talent with rational screening procedures will have a competitive advantage over those wh…

Evidence? I know free market theory sounds like the most plainly obvious, common sense set of statements but you still have to justify your conclusions. You are asserting without proof that the market is full of completely rational agents.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#123

Post by Confusion »

mdasen wrote: post #34

Rather than focusing on whether it's sexist or not, I would start by saying that it is unwise. I think that we (as a society) want young people to see all avenues as open to them regardless of gender. I highly doubt that the company doesn't want to hire women or has any sexist intention. However, it is unwise for us (as individuals and an industry) to use terms like "brogrammer" because it subtly suggests gender. One…

  it subtly suggests gender
I don't think there is anything subtle about it and it's not a suggestion.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#124

Post by ajross »

rezrovs wrote: post #120
dgabriel wrote: post #90

Woman programmer here: I automatically assumed they were looking for college aged men. "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it.

Another woman programmer here: I'm glad I'm not the only one who assumed this.

(Not a woman programmer here)

The sad thing is that despite the clear evidence ("real women programmers read it as a gendered term") we'll no doubt see a ton of posts on this thread arguing that it's clearly not a problem.

That said, I'm reasonably sure that it's not intentionally exclusionary. The poster had an image in their head of a work environment and came up with "brogrammer" as a catchy way to describe it. That this picture didn't include women is a huge problem, obviously, but I suspect it's probably not willful sexism.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#125

Post by sethbannon »

rprime wrote: post #88
ia wrote: post #69

maybe they are going for cultural fit, first and foremost. if you were offended by this job advert, it's likely you wouldn't be a good fit. why hide company culture by writing a stiff and sterile ad? i'm not saying what they did was good or bad, unless they are actually breaking laws in the post--then it's bad. other than that, if you don't like the way they phrased things, don't apply.

Exactly my thoughts, I really like that they actually exposed their cultural thoughts on this one, I hope to see this kind of trend in job postins more and it really makes me want to join that respective company. On the other hand I don't understand, why, most of you, as males are really getting mad about this? Why do you feel offended? If you have a female programmer friend, ask her about this and make her post thei…

To say that males shouldn't call out things they see as sexism against women because they aren't women is dangerous thinking. We're all members of this community, and behavior that disrespects any of us is a problem for all of us.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#126

Post by pingswept »

dgabriel wrote: post #90

Woman programmer here: I automatically assumed they were looking for college aged men. "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it.

Interestingly, as an old male programmer, I also assumed that "brogrammer" does not include me.

(Maybe it does, if I wear baggy pants or something.)

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#127

Post by jessedhillon »

ia wrote: post #111
CodeMage wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I daresay it translated well enough for a couple of people already. The point I was trying to make is that the goal of a job ad is to attract talent. The job ad in question fails at that goal, because the cultural implications will drive away talent. To be fair, it's not a job ad that fails here, it's the culture that came up with that job ad. All in all, you might be right in that they might have put "cultural fit"…

Saying that the alternative is "a stiff and sterile ad" is a fallacy of false dichotomy. fair enough. to clarify--"a stiff and sterile ad" is the only type of add that won't alienate any possible subgroup. the goal of a job ad is not simply to "attract talent". it's to attract the right kind of talent. to that end, a job ad that emphasizes culture is one way to look for it. these guys made a choice, and it looks like…

The point is not to avoid alienating a subset of the population. An ad can and should filter out candidates through its use of language and expression of culture. It cannot, however, filter people out on the basis of whether or not they have penises. That is the only question here: does this ad do that? Many think it does.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#130

Post by pyre »

nasmorn wrote: post #48
jgrahamc wrote: post #2

Perhaps, but more than that it's bloody stupid.

Indeed it would certainly make me not want to apply to the position. In my experience it is hard enough to maintain adequate professionalism in the 20 something caffeine crazed all nighter atmosphere of a startup. If it can't show a modicum of it in its official communication, I can already see the scenes in the office. Also: I would try to hire flowgrammers because you know they are always in the zone. EDIT: Make th…

Does that mean that adverts for non-developers will be pitching for 'nogrammers'?
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