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Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

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Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#101
post #13

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

Could you elaborate on this: > without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. Do these benefits go on if you quit your job? As in can you quit your job and get paid a little less for a while you search for a new one? If you only work a few years in a high paying job the rest in other industries, can you still expect a pension that pays enough money for your last 20-40 years…

I'm sure you are being rhetorical but the answer is "no" to all of your questions. Also, few places provide pensions these days.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#102

I can think of two reasons 1. Productivity - US is a large English speaking country, the mobility and productivity is great. Having a slight edge over others will make you very valuable, especially considering that many US companies are global. 2. Unionisation & socialism - At least in the Scandinavian countries my observation is that management/govt/unions holds a position that software developers should not be paid…

That sounds dystopian

> holds a position that software developers should not be paid a lot more than other employees

I've seen this first hand. Was trying to help a Swedish company recruit for a new customer request. They would not budge their fixed mindset on salaries. Not even 10%. In the end they lost the contract, costing them on the order of SEK20M/y.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#103
I think that is due to a variety of factors, most importantly a massively screwed comparison.

Not every software engineer in the U.S. works at FAANG or even in the bay area or other hotspots. If you'd exclude venture capital backed companies and limit the statistic only to companies with a sustainable business model that will stick around for longer than they can raise new capital, then your average will certainly be a lot lower (and it will still include extremely high salaries by FAANG companies). But venture capital brings me to the first key aspect.

Venture capital barely exists in the EU. There are some VC funds and there are some European startups that managed to raise a decent amount of money, but they don't reach anywhere near the valuations of even early stage US based startups. With more money being in the game, it's obvious that those companies will pay impressive salaries to attract the top talent available. The have the means to do it and having a company with many FAANG devs onboard is almost a guarantee for a successful next capital raising round.

The next thing is the difference in how software is approached. For most European companies software is a cost center, not a profit center. The biggest EU based companies have a few digital products at best, most of them only being complimentary to the products they actually sell and make money off. That is a stark contrast to the US (especially certain areas) where a strong focus on digital products exist. And if you don't make money off your digital products its obvious that you want to keep costs down.

Next I want to go back to my initial reference to the SV area. The reason why salaries are continuing to rise is the extremely high cost of living around those companies. Is a $10,000/month really that high if you have to spend 3,500€/mo on rent alone (I have absolutely no clue about rental prices in the U.S.)? There is no doubt, software engineers in the bay area are far from poor, but especially with salaries that are so far above what you'd find anywhere else, its important to consider the actual cost of living for the area where those kinds of salaries are actually paid. As soon as the cost of living decreases, the salary decreases as well, even within the U.S. And the discussion about FAANG companies wanting to cut salaries for people who are full on WFH just shows that the costs of living are an important reason for the high salaries. The costs of living also include things like education (incl. higher ed), childcare, elderly care, health insurance, etc. All of those things are largely taken care of by the government in most EU states, unlike in the US.

Another reason for lower salaries is the actual cost of having employees (this is limited to my experience in Germany; can differ from other EU countries). Here in Germany taxes, public health insurance and public pension premium is deducted from your salary. But the cost of the employment goes far beyond the salary since your employer also has to contribute roughly the same amount to public health insurance and pension as you have to from your salary. So take the salary of a employee, multiply it by 1.2 and you get the true cost of the employees salary (excluding benefits like vacation time, bonuses or the 13th salary). Additionally, most EU countries actually have employee protection. Not being at risk of loosing your job from one day to another is a pretty nice thing if you'd ask me, but it also reduces the employers flexibility.

To summarize: American software engineers probably really make more money, even if you'd adjust to all the factors I mentioned above. However, the difference is nowhere near as dramatic as the numbers mentioned by OP make it seem.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure that G from FAANG underpays: I stayed in Zurich because I got much better pay than if I moved to US. Also the pension system in Switzerland is awesome. The big downside though was that the male-to-female ratio was beyond unhealthy, so it’s a much better deal for women and men who have a family already.

Where did you move after Zurich?

Back to my home city (Budapest), but in the winters I’m travelling around South and Central America. I invested enough money during my stay in Zurich that I don’t have to worry about it anymore too much.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#105
post #16

Only way to make comparable money in Europe is by contracting. For some reason full-time employees are massively underpaid compared to US and don't tell me about living cost comparison. Life in London for example is just as expensive if not more than San Francisco/New York. We pay for our national health insurance too and probably comparable to what Americans pay for their private. People can barely afford an average…

How does one find a contracting job?

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#107

It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder…

I'm not super sure it's that. What's stopping companies like Spotify? It's not like they were just trying to address the Swedish market. And note carefully, from Wikipedia: > In April 2016, Ek and Lorentzon wrote an open letter to Swedish politicians demanding action in three areas that they claimed hindered the company's ability to recruit top talent as Spotify grows, including access to flexible housing, better edu…

What is it about stock options that are unique to the US?

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#108
post #20
post #16

Only way to make comparable money in Europe is by contracting. For some reason full-time employees are massively underpaid compared to US and don't tell me about living cost comparison. Life in London for example is just as expensive if not more than San Francisco/New York. We pay for our national health insurance too and probably comparable to what Americans pay for their private. People can barely afford an average…

> We pay for our national health insurance too and probably comparable to what Americans pay for their private. To clarify something, in the UK there are two main deductions on personal income - income tax and National Insurance. National Insurance doesn't pay for healthcare, it pays for things like state pension and other support benefits - https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/what-national-insuranc... . The Nation…

NHS has access to some NI funding too about 20% of the NHS budget today comes from national insurance but oddly enough often in the forms of “loans”

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/how-...

National Insurance is also de facto a payroll tax in the UK and a pretty steep one at that it will be over 15% come April if the NIC increases are implemented as is.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not super sure it's that. What's stopping companies like Spotify? It's not like they were just trying to address the Swedish market. And note carefully, from Wikipedia: > In April 2016, Ek and Lorentzon wrote an open letter to Swedish politicians demanding action in three areas that they claimed hindered the company's ability to recruit top talent as Spotify grows, including access to flexible housing, better edu…

What is it about stock options that are unique to the US?

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#110

It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder…

> It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much hard…

> plus FAANG companies effects on local offices.

I work at one of the FAANGs and this isn’t exactly true for our case. We pay a wage competitive with other local companies, and it’s certainly a fraction of the same role pays in the US.

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