I really enjoyed the recent Ask HR post on this topic (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7372997) but since it is locked and I can't comment, I decided to start this one to ask a very specific question. Yes, I understand that the most common paths for older workers are either management or senior roles, but given that the number of these roles is a fairly small percentage of the total workforce, I want to know where the REST of these older workers go? Do people really retire that early -- and if so, how? Are they all working as greeters at Walmart? (if so, please shoot me now)
Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
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Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#2Where do you think they go? Do you really think that a 20 something with no experience programming is more valuable than a 43 year old with 20 years of experience? Maybe in some SF based start-up where culture is more important that productivity... but in the real world people hire guys that can do the job. Most real tech is done by guys over 30.
Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#3Be careful about groupthink. As you get older, you get less and less inclined to just agree with something because everyone else thinks it. When you're young, its almost impossible not to be a member of the pack - but as you get older, you realize its not enough to be the alpha dog. You've gotta get the whole mob through the job. That's not always a management role, you know.
A majority of the aged 40+ developers that I know are still writing code. They're very productive, very certain, and have the experience that a lot of younger guys don't - especially with the social aspect of our industry. Its not enough to be 'the rightest guy in the room'. Its also not enough to be the 'most active developer with all the energy' in the room. What matters is that everyone in the room is right, because of the work being done together, and that the groups' motivation as a whole is more important than any single developer. Of course, if all you've ever done is work on a small (2 or 3) man group, its quite possible the idea of being the oldest guy in a room full of young people is an abhorrent idea to you - well, we old guys are dealing with it and getting the job done in spite of the upstarts.
Don't worry, we know - its penance for all the pain we put our elders through, 20 years ago...
Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#4Be careful about groupthink. As you get older, you get less and less inclined to just agree with something because everyone else thinks it. When you're young, its almost impossible not to be a member of the pack - but as you get older, you realize its not enough to be the alpha dog. You've gotta get the whole mob through the job. That's not always a management role, you know. A majority of the aged 40+ developers tha…
Thanks for your comments guys, but if this is true, why don't I see more workers in their 40s, 50s, and 60s around? (and I'm not specifically speaking of devs, although the effect seems more drastic there).
And I don't work at a startup - this is the 2nd large company (>20k employees) I've worked at, and in both cases, I would say that the percentage of workers over 50 is less than 10% - and most are managers or senior folks.
My question is simple - where the heck did all these people go? I don't think the mortality rate is that high ;-) and I doubt many people can afford to retire that early.
Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#5Be careful about groupthink. As you get older, you get less and less inclined to just agree with something because everyone else thinks it. When you're young, its almost impossible not to be a member of the pack - but as you get older, you realize its not enough to be the alpha dog. You've gotta get the whole mob through the job. That's not always a management role, you know. A majority of the aged 40+ developers tha…
Thanks for your comments guys, but if this is true, why don't I see more workers in their 40s, 50s, and 60s around? (and I'm not specifically speaking of devs, although the effect seems more drastic there). And I don't work at a startup - this is the 2nd large company (>20k employees) I've worked at, and in both cases, I would say that the percentage of workers over 50 is less than 10% - and most are managers or seni…
Maybe folks are retiring at 50 in your company? I don't know, but I see a lot of older guys in the industry in my area (Europe) so it can't be total ..
Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#6Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for your comments guys, but if this is true, why don't I see more workers in their 40s, 50s, and 60s around? (and I'm not specifically speaking of devs, although the effect seems more drastic there). And I don't work at a startup - this is the 2nd large company (>20k employees) I've worked at, and in both cases, I would say that the percentage of workers over 50 is less than 10% - and most are managers or seni…
Maybe folks are retiring at 50 in your company? I don't know, but I see a lot of older guys in the industry in my area (Europe) so it can't be total ..
Interesting - maybe it varies by industry. What industry are you in? These two companies are in telecom and software. I don't think many people in the US are retiring at 50 though - maybe in Europe ;-)
Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#7Where do you think they go? Do you really think that a 20 something with no experience programming is more valuable than a 43 year old with 20 years of experience? Maybe in some SF based start-up where culture is more important that productivity... but in the real world people hire guys that can do the job. Most real tech is done by guys over 30.
These aren't SF startups (see above). I see plenty of 30's and quite a few 40's, but where are all the 50's and 60's? These days I don't think many are passing away at that age, right?
Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#8Where do you think they go? Do you really think that a 20 something with no experience programming is more valuable than a 43 year old with 20 years of experience? Maybe in some SF based start-up where culture is more important that productivity... but in the real world people hire guys that can do the job. Most real tech is done by guys over 30.
These aren't SF startups (see above). I see plenty of 30's and quite a few 40's, but where are all the 50's and 60's? These days I don't think many are passing away at that age, right?
Well considering that the PC was available until the 80's, you'll find few guys in their 50-60's writing code in Ruby or PHP... most of those guys are Fortran an Assembler cats. There are plenty of jobs still available working in host controllers and hardware systems. Being a "Programmer/Developer" as a career wasn't really available until the early 90's. I wrote in about 5 different languages back then, including Dataflex... hahaha
Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#9I assume that you are talking about 50+ demographics, I can share one anecdote. My father-in-law is in his early 60s and he was recently laid off from his job. He was working with RPG /AS400 stuff. He was never in management path and always been individual contributor (even though he started when he was 40 being an immigrant in the US starting from scratch).
He strongly believes that they laid him off due to his age. Sure, he was not doing any extra wonders but was getting things done. However, he was telling us for almost a year that his days are probably numbered because new management wants fresh face.
Right now, he is almost done with unemployment and trying to get back in the market. There certainly are jobs in RPG/AS400 areas but his resume clearly shows his age and he is not getting even a single call. I advised him to only show the last 10 years of work and then see what happens.
Re: Ask HN: Where do older workers go that don't become managers or specialists?
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
These aren't SF startups (see above). I see plenty of 30's and quite a few 40's, but where are all the 50's and 60's? These days I don't think many are passing away at that age, right?
Well considering that the PC was available until the 80's, you'll find few guys in their 50-60's writing code in Ruby or PHP... most of those guys are Fortran an Assembler cats. There are plenty of jobs still available working in host controllers and hardware systems. Being a "Programmer/Developer" as a career wasn't really available until the early 90's. I wrote in about 5 different languages back then, including Da…
Good point, but I'm seeing this phenomena in ALL jobs at these companies - and both have been around for over 30 years. There just aren't alot of older people around - where did they GO?