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Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

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Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

#1
I'm a third year undergrad majoring in business, engineering, and math at a top public school. I have worked extremely hard to get a perfect GPA, and I thought that would have positioned me well for an investment banking internship this upcoming summer.

Unfortunately, I'm getting "out-networked." I understand GPA isn't everything, but it's disappointing to hear that I have a slim chance at banking just because I'm not emailing/cold-calling 3 investment bankers a day. I'm working my ass off so I can get an internship where I work 100+ hours a week doing stuff I don't even know if I'll enjoy. Note: neither the 3 emails / cold-calls per day nor the 100+ hours a week is an exaggeration.

I've never looked into a software development internship. I'm consistently one of the top students in my EE programming classes, but I'm definitely not as good as the kids that have been programming since middle school. But at this point, I'm sick of recruiting for business internships and seriously considering switching.

I came into the business school thinking it would give me a broad array of choices, but it's funneled me to either investment banking or management consulting. I feel like I'm better suited for software development or a startup, but I'm afraid of risking a safe / prestigious job at an investment bank after I graduate.

I know it's "never too late," but I feel like my software dev prospects are nowhere near my banking prospects with about 1.5 years to graduation. What should I do?

Re: Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

#2
Your conclusion is probably true. Though I didn't go to a "top public school," I followed a similar path and had a similar concern at about the same point in my path through college. I should've chosen otherwise, but instead I chose to finish my economics degree and find a job working for a bank. I can assure you that there are plenty of good jobs working for banks all across the country. Sure, they may not be the elite positions in investment banking on Wall Street, but lets be honest, most people who work in banking and finance don't work on Wall Street. So if you continue to pursue you existing path, you'll find there is plenty of opportunity in banking. Depending on the role and the area, entry-level pay runs between $40-$50k. After a couple years experience you can generally get $60k. It's not the mountains of riches you dream of while in college, but it's a good living.

That said, I've discovered on "the outside" (of college) that I don't really like being the analytics guy, the banker. I'd much rather build products, make things, have skills which enable me to do. Often, work in banking (be it sales or analytics or underwriting or finance or whatever) can feel pretty disconnected from the real world. For instance, I've worked in risk management, and now in credit administration, and while I'm very good at what I do, it doesn't excite me the way building products for the web does.

The key, in your position, is to determine what drives you. Do you like being the analytics/numbers/finance guy who is a whiz with spreadsheets, analytics, finance/accounting, etc? Or deep down do you harbor the desire to make things: software, web apps, mobile apps, etc.

At this point, put aside concerns about making tons of money or being "successful" after graduation. Thinking about those things will just muddy your thinking. And the truth is that there's good money to be made in either arena.

Think about whether you want to analyze or build and I think you'll have the answer to your question.

In my case, I've often wished I would've made the transition no matter the cost, so that I could be working in software development now. Since I didn't I now have to pursue a long-game of developing the skill-set on my own and eventually slowly working my way into the field.

It sounds like you expect all banking positions to pay a ton, be on Wall Street, require 100+ hours a week (and 3 emails/cold-calls a day), etc. This is certainly not the case in any of the non-Wall Street positions I've worked. I've always worked no more than 40 hours a week, received decent benefits, good salary, paid bank holidays, competent co-workers, etc.

I'm sure positions like you describe exist, I just don't think they're indicative of the vast majority of the banking and finance industry. Broaden your perspective and you might like what you find.

If not then yes, commit to change gears. Particularly if you really enjoy the software development stuff (like I always have). Don't focus on whether you do well at it, but instead on whether it is rewarding to you. If it's not rewarding to you (software development related classes) then you'll hate working as a software developer. However, if you find the programming you do in those classes rewarding then definitely make the switch, because the banking/finance world can be a very frustrating place for someone who'd rather be making things with code. You have some semi-technical skill-sets which may or may not get any respect, there can be a lot of egos run rampant, and banks are notoriously slow to adapt and innovate.

That said, if you can find meaning in the banking line of work, it's not a "bad" gig per se, it's just not quite as satisfying personally as programming is.

Re: Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

#3
Software development jobs tend not to care what you majored in if you can demonstrate competency and experience. Your average CS senior is a VERY junior programmer.

Also "math / engineering" is usually good enough to bypass the HR "must have degree" wall at companies where that pertains - at least to the point that you have the same chance anyone does to pitch them on interviewing you.

Things you can do that beat "switch majors" in terms of improving employment prospects:

    * Summer internships
    * Part-time gig
    * Write code, publish it on Github
    * Write a tutorial article
    * Create and market a software product
You also have to ask yourself, what are your goals for this? Are you looking for a comfortable W-2, or to spend some time working at startups, or to start a business of your own within a few years of graduating?

Re: Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

#5

Your conclusion is probably true. Though I didn't go to a "top public school," I followed a similar path and had a similar concern at about the same point in my path through college. I should've chosen otherwise, but instead I chose to finish my economics degree and find a job working for a bank. I can assure you that there are plenty of good jobs working for banks all across the country. Sure, they may not be the el…

Thanks for the advice. It seems as our paths are very similar.

To be honest, my biggest interests are in statistics, programming, and finance (in that order). The most natural intersection seemed to be working at a proprietary trading firm. Unfortunately, I applied to over 25 prop shops with no success. I haven't heard of a single alumni from my school in trading; they typically only hire out of MIT, Harvard, Stanford, UPenn, etc.

After no luck with trading, I figured banking would be the next best option with numbers and finance.

Just out of curiosity, do you program in your free time? Do you think you'll eventually make the transition from banking to software development?

Re: Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

#6
post #5

Your conclusion is probably true. Though I didn't go to a "top public school," I followed a similar path and had a similar concern at about the same point in my path through college. I should've chosen otherwise, but instead I chose to finish my economics degree and find a job working for a bank. I can assure you that there are plenty of good jobs working for banks all across the country. Sure, they may not be the el…

Thanks for the advice. It seems as our paths are very similar. To be honest, my biggest interests are in statistics, programming, and finance (in that order). The most natural intersection seemed to be working at a proprietary trading firm. Unfortunately, I applied to over 25 prop shops with no success. I haven't heard of a single alumni from my school in trading; they typically only hire out of MIT, Harvard, Stanfor…

ac1294: Could you put your email address or some way to contact you in your profile? I want to send you a message.

Re: Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

#8
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the advice. It seems as our paths are very similar. To be honest, my biggest interests are in statistics, programming, and finance (in that order). The most natural intersection seemed to be working at a proprietary trading firm. Unfortunately, I applied to over 25 prop shops with no success. I haven't heard of a single alumni from my school in trading; they typically only hire out of MIT, Harvard, Stanfor…

ac1294: Could you put your email address or some way to contact you in your profile? I want to send you a message.

Done

Re: Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

#9
I think there's a huge difference between programming and solving your problem. You just want to earn money, right? So just start thinking about your SaaS application. Something people may need, something easy. And try implementing it.

The best for you would be using HTML + CSS + JavaScript. You can use node.js on server side, it's on JavaScript. I think in 6 months you'll be able to build things you want.

If you want to switch to programming to earn money by working for someone, I'm afraid I have bad news for you. You have to spend a lot of time, cos others probably may have much better experience than you. And you will never earn enough. Salary is salary.

To be short: build your simple project, start learning with practice, not theory. Don't think about being software developer for hire.

Re: Ask HN: How to safely switch to programming?

#10
There's no such thing as "software development". It's like "math" - a very broad term. If you're getting good scores at engineering and math, you definitely could switch to development, you just need to ask yourself what exactly do you want to do? Code a complicated web app, write a network stack for realtime OS, implement complex 3D graphics algorithm on current 3D hardware, write embedded code for the next "Tea kettle with SNMP monitoring" project on Kickstarter or something else? These are quite different skills, these projects go at a very different paces, require different approaches and so on. You can do very well financially on each and every of them, but you need to like what you do, programmers rarely can get away with 9-to-5 thinking about code and 5-to-9 thinking about women, sports or beer. If you're a good programmer you're thinking about efficient priority queue implementation even when you watch superbowl.
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