More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
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Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#2Surprise: press has large effect on what people think was actually leaked. I'm sure 99% of those interviewed have no idea what he actually leaked entailed. I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. A majority of the insinuations of the original "leak" have since been retracted and those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there is anything illegal going on.
Real opinion pieces that actually ask the hard questions like "should the government know less than Google" are all but ignored, in favor of 6 year old backdoor "zero-days", frontpage'd on HN, for applications that have been out of favor for even longer, or politically motivated 'stub' court cases that aren't expected to go anywhere. It has all the indications of a coordinated media event, not a real political scandal. Nobody really cares what's going on, we just care that there is popular support going forward. Popular support for what exactly? for general NSA outrage?
Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#3Surprise: press has large effect on what people think was actually leaked. I'm sure 99% of those interviewed have no idea what he actually leaked entailed. I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. A majority of the insinuations of the original "leak" have since been retracted and those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there…
I think you have a point to pose the question regarding the major Internet companies knowing more about us than the government.
Are there any articles that have stuck out to you that you'd care to share?
Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#4Surprise: press has large effect on what people think was actually leaked. I'm sure 99% of those interviewed have no idea what he actually leaked entailed. I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. A majority of the insinuations of the original "leak" have since been retracted and those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there…
>> those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there is anything illegal going on
Just want to point out that this kind of thing being technically legal might be the scariest fact of all.
Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#5Surprise: press has large effect on what people think was actually leaked. I'm sure 99% of those interviewed have no idea what he actually leaked entailed. I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. A majority of the insinuations of the original "leak" have since been retracted and those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there…
> I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about.
To list a few reasons people are outraged: -Surveillance has been revealed that seems to far exceed what is authorized by the Patriot Act -The executive branch refuses to release the legal rationale on which it justifies the surveillance -Senior officials have lied to Congress about the scope of surveillance -Congress has not properly been briefed on these programs -There programs were kept secret unnecessarily -These programs are extremely dangerous to a free society -It appears this is a serious overreach in executive power, indicating a breakdown in the checks and balances of a functioning representative government
> A majority of the insinuations of the original "leak" have since been retracted
I don't know of any insinuations that have been retracted. The NSA slides say one thing, and the companies say another. There is still much to resolve.
> and those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there is anything illegal going on.
This is completely false. There seems to be a claimed legal basis for what's going on (which happens to be an extreme interpretation of the Patriot Act that even its author states goes beyond what it was written to authorize). But it hasn't been ruled on by a court because the executive branch claims it is too secret for judicial review. When that obstruction is removed, it's likely to be found unconstitutional.
Sure, people you interview might not be able to clearly express the reasons they're outraged. But there are at least three tiers of reasons to be concerned. Please consider reflecting on the fact that a claim of legality is not a claim that something is not terribly wrong and dangerous for society.
Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#6Surprise: press has large effect on what people think was actually leaked. I'm sure 99% of those interviewed have no idea what he actually leaked entailed. I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. A majority of the insinuations of the original "leak" have since been retracted and those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there…
> Real opinion pieces that actually ask the hard questions like "should the government know less than Google" are all but ignored
Maybe most people on HN don't consider that a hard question? At the very least, I consider it an ill-stated question. I think something a little more transparent would be better: at what point must a company forfeit all knowledge to the government?
And when you put it that way, it really doesn't seem like a hard question to answer. At least, not for me.
Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#7Surprise: press has large effect on what people think was actually leaked. I'm sure 99% of those interviewed have no idea what he actually leaked entailed. I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. A majority of the insinuations of the original "leak" have since been retracted and those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there…
I think you have a point to pose the question regarding the major Internet companies knowing more about us than the government. Are there any articles that have stuck out to you that you'd care to share?
The government is a privileged actor that can do many harmful things to a person that a company cannot. The government has a monopoly on coercion, and it claims the sole right to deprive you of life, liberty, and property. For these powers not be abused, there must be real and serious limits on government power. Of course people and companies you enter into private agreements with should know more about what you share with them than the government should.
Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#8Surprise: press has large effect on what people think was actually leaked. I'm sure 99% of those interviewed have no idea what he actually leaked entailed. I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. A majority of the insinuations of the original "leak" have since been retracted and those actually following the details of the story have no belief that there…
> I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. To list a few reasons people are outraged: -Surveillance has been revealed that seems to far exceed what is authorized by the Patriot Act -The executive branch refuses to release the legal rationale on which it justifies the surveillance -Senior officials have lied to Congress about the scope of surveillance -Co…
In your first paragraph, you seem to assert that this program is as The Guardian reported (that is - essentially unfettered access to private data stored with tech companies). In your second paragraph, you seem to admit that we don't really know and there is more to be resolved.
Ultimately, I think you are talking past the person you are replying to. You are arguing that the program as reported by The Guardian (essentially unfettered access to personal data stored with tech companies) is horrible. He is arguing that the program is not what it is being made out to be, and the differences between what it is now popularly believed to be and what it is are tremendous. That is a more fundamental argument that would make the other argument moot if it is true.
Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'd be more interested in a study that asked people if they knew what they were actually outraged about. To list a few reasons people are outraged: -Surveillance has been revealed that seems to far exceed what is authorized by the Patriot Act -The executive branch refuses to release the legal rationale on which it justifies the surveillance -Senior officials have lied to Congress about the scope of surveillance -Co…
In your first paragraph, you seem to assert that this program is as The Guardian reported (that is - essentially unfettered access to private data stored with tech companies). In your second paragraph, you seem to admit that we don't really know and there is more to be resolved. Ultimately, I think you are talking past the person you are replying to. You are arguing that the program as reported by The Guardian (essen…
No--my points stand even on the basis of just the phone record collection.
The questions about Prism just add more to potentially be worried about.
Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
In your first paragraph, you seem to assert that this program is as The Guardian reported (that is - essentially unfettered access to private data stored with tech companies). In your second paragraph, you seem to admit that we don't really know and there is more to be resolved. Ultimately, I think you are talking past the person you are replying to. You are arguing that the program as reported by The Guardian (essen…
No--my points stand even on the basis of just the phone record collection. The questions about Prism just add more to potentially be worried about.
We're all going to need to be specific with what we're talking about or we really are talking past each other.
I think that right now the vast majority of the outrage here is over PRISM, although, if PRISM turns out to be a non-issue, I'm sure the outrage will simply migrate to the phone records issue.