Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
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Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#2There's a large body of work from economists in this area. My impression is that the answer seems to be that the effect on high-skill workers is positive, and the debate is over the magnitude of the positive effect. But, even putting that aside, it seems to me that it's hard to make either a practical or a moral case for restricting immigration of engineers more tightly than we do now.
First, the practical case: when I was in college (2000-2003), none of the Indian or Chinese people wanted to get a job back home. And, they were some of the best people in school: the more advanced the class, the smaller the proportion of native born Americans; graduate level classes were mostly full of foreign-born students, and most of the top of the class consisted of foreign-born students. The U.S. didn't let most of them stay in the country, forcing them to go back home. If you take a bunch of smart people, and force them to live in their home country, they aren't going to go dig ditches; they're going to start industries. Those industries have done so well that many of my classmates (and others) who have spent time working in the U.S., and have a legal right to work here, want to go back home. They, naturally, want to be near their families. A decade ago, there wasn't enough industry to find a job that was both interesting and well paid. By forcing the people who wanted to stay here to go back home, we've forced them to create good companies, and hence, good jobs.
And then there's the moral case. This is less relevant for high-skilled workers now, due to what's happened above, but it still applies for many countries and most industries [1]. If we reduce the wages of engineers in the U.S., we're reducing the wages of a relatively well off group in one of the richest countries in the world. We're talking about reducing the wages of someone who is, on a worldwide scale, in the 99th percentile. If we let someone in from a poor country, we're increasing the income of someone who might be below the 50th percentile into the 99th percentile. It's awfully hard to make a case that we should be enriching the richest people in the world at the cost of the poorest.
[1] Total factor productivity [2] in the U.S. is so high that unskilled Mexican laborers become three times more productive when they cross the border, and, globally, Mexico is one of the richer countries in the world.
Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#3There's a large body of work from economists in this area. My impression is that the answer seems to be that the effect on high-skill workers is positive, and the debate is over the magnitude of the positive effect. But, even putting that aside, it seems to me that it's hard to make either a practical or a moral case for restricting immigration of engineers more tightly than we do now. First, the practical case: when…
1) What is the percentage of students who get admitted into U.S. schools from foreign countries poor? Are most actually middle/upper class and just prefer to study overseas? I saw the latter as a pretty common scenario in Australia and Canada.
2) If they are poor, why are Chinese/Indians more likely to get into engineering/compsci than other demographics that are more local, such as poor African Americans / Hispanic Americans? I've worked in tech in the U.S. for the last five years and have met very few male African Americans / Hispanic Americans despite working in cities with high populations of those demographics.
Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#4While I was hired under H-1b visa I was definitely underpaid, but the moment I got greencard my options exploded. Now I work at startup for 1.5x of prevailing wage in here. And in a year or so I plan to get next bump in salary or finally do a successful launch of my own project.
So... Do not want to slump domestic engineer wages? Remove stupid restrictions and procedures to do transfers once employee got a job in USA so these foreign employees could pick for whom they want to work as easy as this could do domestic employees.
Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#5Very basic economics says that a greater supply of people willing to work at a lower wage (as many H1Bs) will reduce the market wage.
"Somewhere along the line, the H-1B program got side-tracked. The program was never meant to replace qualified American workers, but it was instead intended as a means to fill gaps in highly specialized areas of employment. When times are tough, like they are now, it's especially important that Americans get every consideration before an employer looks to hire from abroad" - Sen. Chuck Grassley
Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#6Very basic economics says that a greater supply of people willing to work at a lower wage (as many H1Bs) will reduce the market wage. "Somewhere along the line, the H-1B program got side-tracked. The program was never meant to replace qualified American workers, but it was instead intended as a means to fill gaps in highly specialized areas of employment. When times are tough, like they are now, it's especially impor…
Labor economics are anything but simple.
Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#7There's a large body of work from economists in this area. My impression is that the answer seems to be that the effect on high-skill workers is positive, and the debate is over the magnitude of the positive effect. But, even putting that aside, it seems to me that it's hard to make either a practical or a moral case for restricting immigration of engineers more tightly than we do now. First, the practical case: when…
> If we let someone in from a poor country, we're increasing the income of someone who might be below the 50th percentile into the 99th percentile. It's awfully hard to make a case that we should be enriching the richest people in the world at the cost of the poorest.
It's not hard to make that case at all. Indians and Chinese prospective immigrants are not part of the American body politic. The American government has no duty to benefit them at the expense of Americans, and indeed I'd argue that it's morally wrong for the American government, instituted to protect American interests and American prosperity, to make that trade off regardless of the relative wealth of the people involved.
Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#8One word economics! It can provide real answers to the questions poised by the author. The author treats this subject like a black science creating hypothetical scenarios. What a joke.
Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#9Well there are two answers here.
First, coming from a less developed country doesn't mean you'll be less skilled. On the contrary, it's a strong incentive. Being raised and schooled in a developed country is only a luxury, it won't make you a better engineer.
Secondly, those engineers will "depress" wages for several reasons. First, it's supply and demand. They have much stronger wishes to work in a developed country compared to native engineers. Secondly, companies might also hire native engineers because of various reasons, like language barriers, relationships between personel, the culture of the company, etc.
If it depress wages, it might be because there might be a lack skill and innovation somewhere. Lower wages isn't always a bad thing actually.
Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?
#10I won't even say that they do, as it is obvious on the face of it.
There's really no debate about this issue, like scientists debating some aspect of quantum mechanics seeking to get to the truth. This is a fight over how the pie gets divided up, and the billionaires and their commissars like Yglesias are trying to grab more of the pie. We're still at a historic unemployment high from the 2008 crash, current unemployment was not at its high current level from 1984 to 2008 other than a two month period in 1992.
As I said, this is not a debate like physicists arguing to get to the truth. This is a struggle of people trying to get their pockets filled, and lies and nonsense are par for the course. Every statement in a thread like this boils down to either "I am on the side of the IT workers who create the wealth in the US" or "I am on the side of the heirs and billionaires who extract profit from the labor of those who work".
So glad Yglesias is looking out for us common programmers...Yglesias's bio says he went to Dalton. Do you know how much first grade costs at Dalton? Over $40,000. The heirs, the billionaires and their agents got together to push for more H1-B slaves in the midst of this historic unemployment, and now the propaganda push happens. Arguing with their agents does nothing - get together with other engineers organizing against this type of nonsense and get going. There is no type of honest debate possible as they are just greedy people who will tell any lie to pile some more money on their billions. Your alternatives are join with those organizing against these types of things or do nothing. Yglesias and those who agree with them are liars who will say anything to rip you off, so talking to them is pointless.