Live data from Hacker News

Fear Not Deflation

forbes.com

1–10 of 46 posts

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#2
I hope there are better arguments for the deflationary nature of Bitcoin than this article.

The author uses the utterly senseless definition of deflation as a change in the total money supply, instead of per capita money supply. If Bitcoin becomes more popular, its asset value increases because demand for it has increased, not due to "political numéraires" (whatever those are). Increasing the population but keeping the money supply fixed is fundamentally deflationary, and Bitcoin's "population" has the potential for large growth.

Second, it's astonishing that the author would approvingly quote a passage like this:

Deflation rewards the prudent saver and punishes the profligate borrower. The way a society, like an individual, becomes wealthy is by producing more than it consumes. In other words, by saving, not borrowing.

This is naive bullionism taken to a whole new level of insanity, with physical gold replaced by numbers in a file. Saving is equated with producing, as if putting my bitcoin wallet on a thumb drive and stuffing it under my mattress starts up a factory. Entirely absent from this morality play is the prudent investor, who borrows or spends out of savings to buy capital goods with the hope of increasing production, and is punished.

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#3
Deflation is a disaster for anyone with debts as the value of them grows rather than being inflated away. So while it may be OK in the bit coin world (as I don't believe there are any significant bit coin denominated debts) deflation would cause massive economic contraction in the real world as debts would grow reducing spending and there is reason to believe it would not converge rapidly to an equilibrium (certainly not one that people would like).

http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs http://www.complexity.org.au/ci/vol06/keen/keen.html

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#4
This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Its only real point is that commodity-based currencies and deflations weaken government.

Furthermore, its idiotic praise of societal-level saving is pure nonsense. My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend.

Do they have to spend beyond their means and go into debt or reduce their own savings for me to save? Well, that's where the issue of money comes in.

If we have a standard-issue modern currency, ie: slow but steady rate of inflation targeted by a central bank, then some amount of new money enters the economy each year. As long as total new savings in the year don't exceed this amount, then and only then can everyone save at the same time.

In a gold-backed inherently-deflationary currency without fractional reserve banking or government fiat to create inflation.... all savings is zero-sum. Such a currency is indeed inherently deflationary, and the deflation spirals as those who can actually afford to save come to own larger and larger portions of the total bullion supply -- which they are of course saving!

You end up with only one way to put aggregate demand back into the system: credit. Which is exactly what has happened to our real societies in the past three decades of anti-inflationary, anti-labor public policies! Problem is, that makes the deflation truly become a crisis, because even a 2% annual deflation is in fact an extra 2% interest compounding on any and all nominal debts.

Deflation is bad for the same reason inflation is bad, namely that an unexpected change in currency value alters the real terms of almost all business contracts ex post facto. But deflation is also distinctly bad for another reason: once it kicks in, there is no incentive for net creditors/savers to engage in any real production of anything. Their biggest incentive becomes the generation and continuation of nominal debts (whose real value accumulates a deflation bonus). Worse, as the deflation happens and alters contracts ex-post-facto, people's debts become unpayable. So now the creditors go bankrupt too, and the only people left safe are the savers who literally stored physical bullion in a physical location. Anyone with so much as a bank account finds out they were actually a creditor, and are now completely fucked.

Deflation is a wet dream of survivalist "gold, beans, and ammo" nutters, and the world's worst preventable nightmare for everyone else!

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#6

Deflation is a disaster for anyone with debts as the value of them grows rather than being inflated away. So while it may be OK in the bit coin world (as I don't believe there are any significant bit coin denominated debts) deflation would cause massive economic contraction in the real world as debts would grow reducing spending and there is reason to believe it would not converge rapidly to an equilibrium (certainly…

Wouldn't this be compensated for by lower rates for lending?

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#7

This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Its only real point is that commodity-based currencies and deflations weaken government. Furthermore, its idiotic praise of societal-level saving is pure nonsense. My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend. Do they have to spe…

And who will survive if nobody produces anything for anybody to consume or horde? Imagine that the farmers of the world decided not to produce anything for us to eat and instead only horde stuff.

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#8

This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Its only real point is that commodity-based currencies and deflations weaken government. Furthermore, its idiotic praise of societal-level saving is pure nonsense. My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend. Do they have to spe…

Up voted.

Would add that in a deflationary environment no one will want credit so really you have to print money and give it away (or just print it and spend it).

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#9
post #6

Deflation is a disaster for anyone with debts as the value of them grows rather than being inflated away. So while it may be OK in the bit coin world (as I don't believe there are any significant bit coin denominated debts) deflation would cause massive economic contraction in the real world as debts would grow reducing spending and there is reason to believe it would not converge rapidly to an equilibrium (certainly…

Wouldn't this be compensated for by lower rates for lending?

Interest probably wouldn't fall below zero. Also no incentive to lend money rather than hold so not so much incentive to offer good rates anyway.

Savings rates might well go negative though.

Steve Keen as linked to is well worth a read rather than my first approximation guesses.

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#10
post #7

This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Its only real point is that commodity-based currencies and deflations weaken government. Furthermore, its idiotic praise of societal-level saving is pure nonsense. My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend. Do they have to spe…

And who will survive if nobody produces anything for anybody to consume or horde? Imagine that the farmers of the world decided not to produce anything for us to eat and instead only horde stuff.

People would spend for food but save as much money as possible making the economy contract with demand in a depression. Hopefully the government would turn on the printing presses and step in as spender of last resort before the food ran out.
Post reply on HN