The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
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Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#2What is the power draw of these joints?
Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#3Surgical robots, and robot pianos both exist. Neither employ humanoid hands. This all just illustrates how humanoid robots are, in multiple dimensions, going down technology rat holes. In some cases better solutions already exist without looking humanoid. In other cases, the humanoid form factor fails to address problems like a high center of gravity in a device that needs to not fall on grandma while helping her around the house.
I continue to be amazed that the wrong form factor keeps being pursued. Though I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised given the parade of failed "AI devices."
Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#4Website down? "This deployment is temporarily paused"
Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#5Surgical robots, and robot pianos both exist. Neither employ humanoid hands. This all just illustrates how humanoid robots are, in multiple dimensions, going down technology rat holes. In some cases better solutions already exist without looking humanoid. In other cases, the humanoid form factor fails to address problems like a high center of gravity in a device that needs to not fall on grandma while helping her aro…
You are right. If the hand is doing a specific task, better morphologies are likely. But that's not always desirable. The canonical example is of course the household. I don't want X robots, I want 1. And I don't want to change anything. Robot hand!
Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#6Surgical robots, and robot pianos both exist. Neither employ humanoid hands. This all just illustrates how humanoid robots are, in multiple dimensions, going down technology rat holes. In some cases better solutions already exist without looking humanoid. In other cases, the humanoid form factor fails to address problems like a high center of gravity in a device that needs to not fall on grandma while helping her aro…
Similar to how we are seeing LLMs shoved into spaces where existing ML was already doing well and better suited.
Not to dismiss the value of LLMs in those cases as an interface/interpretation layer.
If grandma goes into the windowless surgery factory, I just want the best bots working on her. There is value in having Dr. Bot the replicant give me the face-to-face status updates. We are not breaking out those layers as much, anymore, as the focus becomes minimizing FOMO.
Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#7Surgical robots, and robot pianos both exist. Neither employ humanoid hands. This all just illustrates how humanoid robots are, in multiple dimensions, going down technology rat holes. In some cases better solutions already exist without looking humanoid. In other cases, the humanoid form factor fails to address problems like a high center of gravity in a device that needs to not fall on grandma while helping her aro…
I think one major draw to human-like for factors is the reuse of existing ecosystems and tools. If you have human-like grasping, you can reuse tools and utensils for human hands, otherwise, you need custom attachments. If you have human-like legs you can navigate stairs, wear pants for customization, and possibly operate a car or bike.
Its a bit like choosing JS / python -- of course performance is inferior to a compiled language with highly tailored code, but they are flexible and have an ecosystem that might do 99% of the lifting for you.
But in isolation, I agree with your idea that specialized robots with form fitted specifically to task will likely outperform a more generalized solution in a specific domain of behavior, the more generalized will likely outperform in flexibility and reusability (e.g. capable of reusing the human ecosystem).
Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#8Surgical robots, and robot pianos both exist. Neither employ humanoid hands. This all just illustrates how humanoid robots are, in multiple dimensions, going down technology rat holes. In some cases better solutions already exist without looking humanoid. In other cases, the humanoid form factor fails to address problems like a high center of gravity in a device that needs to not fall on grandma while helping her aro…
I see it as trying to apply the bitter lesson to robotics. Specialized robots will always have their place, but humanoid ones can take advantage of all the design interfaces that already exist in the world for humans.
Similar to how claude code gained so much traction in terminal by just leveraging the command line interface that already exists for humans, no need to invent a domain specific MCP to just run shell commands.
I agree with you that it's far from the most efficient approach for specific tasks. But the analogy would be that you also generally don't want to use LLMs to do something you can "just" write a script for... that doesn't make LLMs useless though.
Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#9Surgical robots, and robot pianos both exist. Neither employ humanoid hands. This all just illustrates how humanoid robots are, in multiple dimensions, going down technology rat holes. In some cases better solutions already exist without looking humanoid. In other cases, the humanoid form factor fails to address problems like a high center of gravity in a device that needs to not fall on grandma while helping her aro…
Many overactuated, purpose built robots (like surgical robots and pianos) exist, and have existed since the Unimate, and work great in certain situations. The problem with all of them is they are very expensive, often extremely large, and single purpose or very narrow purpose (and even if they are narrowly multipurpose, require tons of setup to get to work for each job they are intended to do).
I personally am not bullish on 1:1 human hands either, but IMO the question shouldn't be $100k 2 ton Kuka arm vs biped with hands, it's overactuated robotics (build it from the floor with hard coded operations) vs underactuated (build it from the contact point of the work backwards with ML and sensors). We shall see which form factors prevail, but the type of robotics development posted here seems like the way forwards regardless, an ecosystem of small, power dense, reliable, accurate QDD actuators will lead to many general purpose robot applications. I recognize I am not using underactuated vs overactuated in their strict definition here but if you are familiar with robots I think you'll understand where I am coming from as far as a robot design ethos.
I will say though in designing robots of this type without necessarily being bound by trying to make a robot look like a human, I have often found myself accidentally recreating human arm DOF in a round trip way, it does just end up being well packaged beyond the "world designed for humans" talking point. Maybe hands will end up being a similar situation.
Re: The Robotic Dexterity Deadlock
#10Surgical robots, and robot pianos both exist. Neither employ humanoid hands. This all just illustrates how humanoid robots are, in multiple dimensions, going down technology rat holes. In some cases better solutions already exist without looking humanoid. In other cases, the humanoid form factor fails to address problems like a high center of gravity in a device that needs to not fall on grandma while helping her aro…
You are right. If the hand is doing a specific task, better morphologies are likely. But that's not always desirable. The canonical example is of course the household. I don't want X robots, I want 1. And I don't want to change anything. Robot hand!
Not to mention that the world is very widely designed to be manipulated by hands: doorknobs, handles, container sizes. A unique door opening appendage isn't going to do much good around your house.