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Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

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Re: Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

#2
I really want to read an essay on this topic by someone I'm more confident actually understands what math is. Or truth, for that matter. The author smears the boundary between what people believe and what is logically entailed, and between mathematical techniques and the way they are applied in modelling the real world. They persist in phrasing their statements about how people conceptualize math in terms of "is" and "are", which I tend to assume is a stylistic choice to speak in the perspective of their subjects, but they're so sloppy about perception and truth and "reason" in the rest of the piece that I can't be sure.

Re: Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

#3

I really want to read an essay on this topic by someone I'm more confident actually understands what math is. Or truth, for that matter. The author smears the boundary between what people believe and what is logically entailed, and between mathematical techniques and the way they are applied in modelling the real world. They persist in phrasing their statements about how people conceptualize math in terms of "is" and…

I studied math (Algebra and Number Theory) and I am also quite interested in history, and while I cannot write you a whole essay, this is what I would like to react to:

"The author smears the boundary between what people believe and what is logically entailed"

This is not the fault of the author. This is a fairly accurate description of the societal situation back then, and the article is more about societal impacts of math than math itself. Revolutionary, and later Napoleonic France had very high regard for science, to the degree that Napoleon took a sizeable contingent of scientists (including then-top mathematicians like Gaspard Monge) with him to Egypt in 1799. The same France also conquered half of the continent and upended traditional relations everywhere.

This caused some political reaction in the, well, more reactionary parts of the world, especially given that the foundations of modern mathematics were yet incomplete. Many important algebraic and analytic theorems were only discovered/proven in the 19th century proper. Therefore, there was a certain tendency to RETVRN to the golden age of geometry, which also for historical reasons didn't involve any French people (and that was politically expedient).

If I had to compare this situation to whatever is happening now, it would be politicization of biology/medicine after Covid. Another similarity is that many scientists were completely existentially dependent on their kings, which didn't give them a lot of independence, especially in bigger countries, where you could not simply move to a competing jurisdiction 20 miles away.

If your sovereign is somewhat educated (which, at that time, was already quite normal; these aren't illiterate chieftains of the Carolingian era) and hates subversive French (mathematical or otherwise) innovations with passion, you won't be dabbling with them openly.

Re: Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

#4

I really want to read an essay on this topic by someone I'm more confident actually understands what math is. Or truth, for that matter. The author smears the boundary between what people believe and what is logically entailed, and between mathematical techniques and the way they are applied in modelling the real world. They persist in phrasing their statements about how people conceptualize math in terms of "is" and…

Oh! I really liked the essay - the idea that French 'analysis' was seen as a dangerous modern invention and contrasted with 'synthetic' geometric understanding of the world had political implications is fascinating. There could be parallels with the present day use of computer modelling (and now AI) being seen as a risky way to organise and run societies.

I agree that there is a lot of vague language around the practice of mathematics as a social and philosophical construct ('analysts' vs 'synthetics') but I'm not sure how that indicates the author does not understand what truth is. My understanding of the history of mathematics and science is that these areas of knowledge were much more intertwined with philosophy and religion than they are considered to be today.

So Newton saw no issue with working on the calculus at the same time as being an alchemist and a non-trinitarian. Understanding the world was often a religious activity - by understanding Nature, you understood God's creation - and in Naples it seems that understanding analysis was tied to certain political and nationalist ideas.

Re: Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

#5

I really want to read an essay on this topic by someone I'm more confident actually understands what math is. Or truth, for that matter. The author smears the boundary between what people believe and what is logically entailed, and between mathematical techniques and the way they are applied in modelling the real world. They persist in phrasing their statements about how people conceptualize math in terms of "is" and…

> statements about how people conceptualize math in terms of "is" and "are"

What do you mean? I searched the page for "are", it doesn't appear much at all, I'm ruling that one out. So do you mean for instance this statement - ?

  "This zealous quest for universal problem-solving algorithms is precisely what made the synthetics uneasy."
What's wrong with that?

Re: Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

#7
> The Neapolitans did not reject modern analysis simply because they considered it French.

And yet after reading the article, it sounds like that is exactly what happened. They took some minor philosophical dispute in math and blew it up for cultural reasons to stick it to the invader. It doesn't sound like it ever really was about the math for most people in that context.

Re: Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

#8
Hot take: the author sneaks in a premise that synthetic mathematics is per se "reactionary", but this is itself pure reactionary copium for not getting it: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/synthetic+mathematics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_mathematics . There's nothing wrong with wishing to pursue a "coordinate-free" approach to any mathematical field: the old geometers were quite right about this.

Re: Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

#9
post #7

> The Neapolitans did not reject modern analysis simply because they considered it French. And yet after reading the article, it sounds like that is exactly what happened. They took some minor philosophical dispute in math and blew it up for cultural reasons to stick it to the invader. It doesn't sound like it ever really was about the math for most people in that context.

I think it depends on what one regards as a minor dispute. The Newton/Leibniz calculus dispute a generation or so earlier was pretty major, with Newton defending his deductive geometrical method of fluxions against Leibniz's more algebraic concepts. Leibniz was also much into his universal calculus. I was wondering what this Fergola would have thought about Newton and his geometrical method (fluxions)!

The Naples state at that time was around 5 million people. You had the landowners (I imagine) looking around at the 'enclosures' of common land in Britain and other parts of Europe and thinking about rents. You had the engineers and Jacobins thinking about new roads and canals and all. The ones who lost out appear to have been the peasants as they lost the feudal protections and access to common lands. And so it goes.

Re: Naples' 1790s civil war was intensified by moral panic over Real Analysis (2023)

#10

I really want to read an essay on this topic by someone I'm more confident actually understands what math is. Or truth, for that matter. The author smears the boundary between what people believe and what is logically entailed, and between mathematical techniques and the way they are applied in modelling the real world. They persist in phrasing their statements about how people conceptualize math in terms of "is" and…

I studied math (Algebra and Number Theory) and I am also quite interested in history, and while I cannot write you a whole essay, this is what I would like to react to: "The author smears the boundary between what people believe and what is logically entailed" This is not the fault of the author. This is a fairly accurate description of the societal situation back then, and the article is more about societal impacts…

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