Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
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Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
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Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#2Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#3Does this person not understand XML serializers..?
Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#4Does this person not understand XML serializers..?
Exactly, there is no data provided on why the author believes it is “too complex”, just one random person ranting.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44606646
But if you dig hard enough, there's actually links to more evidence of why it is that complicated... so I don't think it was necessarily intentionally done as a method of lock-in, but where's the outrage in that? /s
"Complicated file format has legitimate reasons for being complicated" just doesn't have the same ring to it as a sensationalized accusation with no proof.
Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#5One could now use that exact sentence to describe the most popular open document format of all: HTML and CSS.
Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#6Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly, there is no data provided on why the author believes it is “too complex”, just one random person ranting.
You're not wrong, but it's funny that this same topic was posted just earlier today with a very different sentiment in the comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44606646 But if you dig hard enough, there's actually links to more evidence of why it is that complicated... so I don't think it was necessarily intentionally done as a method of lock-in, but where's the outrage in that? /s "Complicated file format…
'special case everything we ever used to do in office so everything renders exactly the same'
Instead of offering some suitable placebo for properly rendering into a new format ONCE with those specific quirks fixed in place?
Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#7Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#8What isn’t acknowledged is that a lot of that complexity isn’t purely malicious. OOXML had to capture decades of WordPerfect/Office binary formats, include every oddball feature ever shipped, and satisfy both backwards‑compatibility and ISO standardisation. A comprehensive schema will inevitably have “dozens or even hundreds of optional or overloaded elements” and long type hierarchies. That’s one reason why the spec is huge. Likewise, there’s a difference between a complicated but documented standard and a closed format—OOXML is published (you can go and download those 8 000 pages), and the parts of it that matter for basic interoperability are quite small compared with the full kitchen‑sink spec.
That doesn’t mean the criticism is wrong. The sheer size and complexity of OOXML mean that few free‑software developers can afford to implement more than a tiny subset. When the bar is that high, the practical effect is the same as lock‑in. For simple document exchange, OpenDocument is significantly leaner and easier to work with, and interoperability bodies like the EU have been encouraging governments to use it for years. The takeaway for anyone designing document formats today should be the same as the article’s closing line: complexity imprisons people; simplicity and clarity set them free.
Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#9Does this person not understand XML serializers..?
What is it about serializing XML that would optimize the expression of a data model?
Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool
#10The complexity is not artificial, it is completely organic and natural.
It is incidental complexity born of decades of history, backwards compatibility, lip-service to openness, and regulatory compliance checkbox ticking. It wasn't purposefully added, it just happened.
Every large document-based application's file format is like this, no exceptions.
As a random example, Adobe Photoshop PSD files are famously horrific to parse, let alone interpret in any useful way. There are many, many other examples, I don't aim to single out any particular vendor.
All of this boils down to the simple fact that these file formats have no independent existence apart from their editor programs.
They're simply serialised application state, little better than memory-dumps. They encode every single feature the application has, directly. They must! Otherwise the feature states couldn't be saved. It's tautological. If it's in Word, Excel, PowerPoint, or any other Office app somewhere, it has to go into the files too.
There are layers and layers of this history and complex internal state that has to be represented in the file. Everything from compatibility flags, OLE embedding, macros, external data source, incremental saves, the support for quirks of legacy printers that no longer exist, CYMK, external data, document signing, document review notes, and on and on.
No extra complexity had to be added to the OOXML file formats, that's just a reflection of the complexity of Microsoft Office applications.
Simplicity was never engineered into these file formats. If it had been, it would have been a tremendous extra effort for zero gain to Microsoft.
Don't blame Microsoft for this either, because other vendors did the exact same thing, for the exact same pragmatic reasons.