Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
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Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
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Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#2Translation has always been interesting to me as I speak Mandarin, Swedish, and English.
I think a lot of subtlety gets lost in translations, even from person to person. Is the more "academically correct" translation better, or is the one that captures the slang and the vibe in modern terms and memes in a way we can feel the speaker more correct?
I think most people who choose the former look at translations as something that is absolute and objective, but I think translations, like most communication, needs to be subjective to both the speaker and the reader.
And just as humans can get each of these "wrong," LLMs can and will, too
Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#3Translation has always been interesting to me as I speak Mandarin, Swedish, and English. I think a lot of subtlety gets lost in translations, even from person to person. Is the more "academically correct" translation better, or is the one that captures the slang and the vibe in modern terms and memes in a way we can feel the speaker more correct? I think most people who choose the former look at translations as somet…
It depends on the intent.
If I want to learn about a culture and language, an objective translation is what I want. E.g. I want to learn the idioms of the time and place, not have them changed by the whim of the translator to something similar but perhaps changing the intent
If I want to persuade or illuminate the topic, then by all means a more approachable translation with modern idiom is more useful.
An example I know of is, an early Dolby cassette recording from a Japanese source had the marketing copy "Smells of the lamp of high technology!" Which is meaningless, even humorous to a Westerner. Not good marketing copy.
But I enjoyed learning something of Japanese culture. That things could 'smell of' something as a way of imagining them.
Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#4Translation has always been interesting to me as I speak Mandarin, Swedish, and English. I think a lot of subtlety gets lost in translations, even from person to person. Is the more "academically correct" translation better, or is the one that captures the slang and the vibe in modern terms and memes in a way we can feel the speaker more correct? I think most people who choose the former look at translations as somet…
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Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#5Translation has always been interesting to me as I speak Mandarin, Swedish, and English. I think a lot of subtlety gets lost in translations, even from person to person. Is the more "academically correct" translation better, or is the one that captures the slang and the vibe in modern terms and memes in a way we can feel the speaker more correct? I think most people who choose the former look at translations as somet…
It depends on the intent. If I want to learn about a culture and language, an objective translation is what I want. E.g. I want to learn the idioms of the time and place, not have them changed by the whim of the translator to something similar but perhaps changing the intent If I want to persuade or illuminate the topic, then by all means a more approachable translation with modern idiom is more useful. An example I…
I look at translations as works by themselves. I don't think it's possible to recreate the feeling of experiencing a work in its original language without actually learning that language. One truly cannot experience Shakespeare unless one reads him in the original Klingon.
That doesn't mean that translations are useless, but you're kidding yourself if you think you understand the phrase that translated to "smells of" in the same way that a Japanese person would. It's evocative to you, but native speakers may not even think of it as a metaphor. As an example, do you think of a human face when someone refers to the "face" of a clock? Do you imagine an organist when someone says they are "pulling out all the stops"?
Only real Japanese speakers can experience works of art in Japanese, just as Germans who don't speak English can't actually experience Hasselhoff the way Americans do, try as they might. People can create works of art inspired by the originals, and call them translations, but they are new works.
Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#6Translation has always been interesting to me as I speak Mandarin, Swedish, and English. I think a lot of subtlety gets lost in translations, even from person to person. Is the more "academically correct" translation better, or is the one that captures the slang and the vibe in modern terms and memes in a way we can feel the speaker more correct? I think most people who choose the former look at translations as somet…
It’s also way harder for Chinese too. Different regions have different dialects despite using the same writing system. Different dialects usually mean different culture which means they use different words in different ways like slangs.
Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#7Translation has always been interesting to me as I speak Mandarin, Swedish, and English. I think a lot of subtlety gets lost in translations, even from person to person. Is the more "academically correct" translation better, or is the one that captures the slang and the vibe in modern terms and memes in a way we can feel the speaker more correct? I think most people who choose the former look at translations as somet…
It depends on the intent. If I want to learn about a culture and language, an objective translation is what I want. E.g. I want to learn the idioms of the time and place, not have them changed by the whim of the translator to something similar but perhaps changing the intent If I want to persuade or illuminate the topic, then by all means a more approachable translation with modern idiom is more useful. An example I…
> E.g. I want to learn the idioms of the time and place, not have them changed by the whim of the translator to something similar but perhaps changing the intent
But how can you learn the meaning of an idiom if it's translated literally? For example, even in context, "and now we have the salad" can be pretty baffling.
Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#8Translation has always been interesting to me as I speak Mandarin, Swedish, and English. I think a lot of subtlety gets lost in translations, even from person to person. Is the more "academically correct" translation better, or is the one that captures the slang and the vibe in modern terms and memes in a way we can feel the speaker more correct? I think most people who choose the former look at translations as somet…
To add to this, things can also get "lost in translation" even if you're reading something in your native language.
If you're reading something written in the 19th or early 20th century then even something you think you understand might be going over your head, because it's referencing some cultural context obvious to anyone at the time.
Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
It depends on the intent. If I want to learn about a culture and language, an objective translation is what I want. E.g. I want to learn the idioms of the time and place, not have them changed by the whim of the translator to something similar but perhaps changing the intent If I want to persuade or illuminate the topic, then by all means a more approachable translation with modern idiom is more useful. An example I…
I look at translations as works by themselves. I don't think it's possible to recreate the feeling of experiencing a work in its original language without actually learning that language. One truly cannot experience Shakespeare unless one reads him in the original Klingon. That doesn't mean that translations are useless, but you're kidding yourself if you think you understand the phrase that translated to "smells of"…
I would watch the movie adaptation of a book I enjoyed, or vice versa, but I wouldn't read a book in translation that I'd already read in the original, and I don't think many people would. (I might read the original after the translation).
So in some sense a translation is less of a unique work than a film adaptation.
Classical scholars are an exception here, who might read Homer in half a dozen translations. But that's for two reasons: firstly, classical scholars are likely translators themselves, or at least students of the art of translation; secondly, there are only so many great Ancient Greek texts to read in the original.
Re: Translating my Grandfather’s biograpy
#10Translation has always been interesting to me as I speak Mandarin, Swedish, and English. I think a lot of subtlety gets lost in translations, even from person to person. Is the more "academically correct" translation better, or is the one that captures the slang and the vibe in modern terms and memes in a way we can feel the speaker more correct? I think most people who choose the former look at translations as somet…
I am also a Mandarin speaker, and a very interesting thing happens when I try to read classical Chinese by dictionary or my modern understanding of the language: It's vague, lacking nuance, and basically unreadable. It requires very talented translators and skilled academics to make readable modern translations.
For classical Chinese poetry, the best English translations have been other poets, even though most have been unable to read any Chinese! Check out "Lament of the Frontier Guard" by Tang dynasty poet Li Bo (李白), as written by Ezra Pound more than 100 years ago:
By the North Gate, the wind blows full of sand,
Lonely from the beginning of time until now!
Trees fall, the grass goes yellow with autumn.
I climb the towers and towers to watch out the barbarous land:
Desolate castle, the sky, the wide desert.
There is no wall left to this village.
Bones white with a thousand frosts,
High heaps, covered with trees and grass;
Who brought this to pass? ...
https://scalar.fas.harvard.edu/resources-for-loss/lament-of-...
I am sure professional translators would find issues on technical and stylistic points, but could any be as evocative with their own translations?
I think we have to be prepared to give LLMs some leeway with language ... or empower humans (both editors and readers) with the tools to "tune" the translations as appropriate to their tastes, understanding, and subjective needs. This is basically what Korny did, trying different tools and consulting other humans as needed with certain colloquialisms.