Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
1–10 of 11 posts
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#2Related:
WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic (279 points, 1 day ago, 223 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41631912
Open Source, Trademarks, and WP Engine (30 points, 1 hours ago, 19 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41642597
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#3Automattic has had the trademark for a little under a decade. WP Engine has existed since 2010. The argument for the trademark has been lost. If you don't actively crack down on usages of your trademark, you can't arbitrarily decide to enforce it in the future. Especially not against a company allegedly making hundreds of millions in revenue from your trademark: you've had to actively ignore its use for a decade.
That's even ignoring the question of whether you can really argue that they're violating your trademark for calling their service "WordPress hosting" as shown in the exhibits. They're not passing something off as WordPress, it's literally WordPress that's being hosted.
Highlighting Reddit and Twitter posts calling WPE "WordPress engine" is nonsense. Highlighting a page where a WPE partner uses the wrong company name ("WordPress Engine") is embarrassing for WPE but still something of a reach. Highlighting a content farm post saying "WP Engine" stands for "WordPress Engine" is absurd. Making the argument that "WP" is covered by the trademark is ridiculous, especially when the replies on Twitter screenshot the receipts of WayBackMachine snapshots showing Automattic telling folks it's totally fine to use "WP".
I own a trademark for my business, and my lawyers had a (very gentle and kindly written) letter sent to two teenagers who started a podcast whose name infringed on the mark. If my lawyers care about that, Automattic has exactly no business trying to turn around on WPE at this point. This is just petty drama.
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#4Why do otherwise smart people start feuds like this?
I think that most people on HN would agree that 1) the most likely outcome of this feud is negative for Automattic and 2) Matt should have reasonably known that from the start.
Is it some consequence of a passionate founder having the influence to choose emotions over business sense?
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#5Automattic has had the trademark for a little under a decade. WP Engine has existed since 2010. The argument for the trademark has been lost. If you don't actively crack down on usages of your trademark, you can't arbitrarily decide to enforce it in the future. Especially not against a company allegedly making hundreds of millions in revenue from your trademark: you've had to actively ignore its use for a decade . Th…
Agreed the trademark case seems pretty thin and then when you see they changed the trademark page today it seems like a loser for Automattic
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#6This really is a bad look for Automattic, they're only doing this out of spite. They had no problem having WP Engine as a sponsor of WordCampUS (https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/sponsor/wp-engine/).
It's like Matt has lost his mind. Certainly makes me not want to support WordPress any more.
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#7Automattic has had the trademark for a little under a decade. WP Engine has existed since 2010. The argument for the trademark has been lost. If you don't actively crack down on usages of your trademark, you can't arbitrarily decide to enforce it in the future. Especially not against a company allegedly making hundreds of millions in revenue from your trademark: you've had to actively ignore its use for a decade . Th…
> Highlighting Reddit and Twitter posts calling WPE "WordPress engine" is nonsense.
You are taking this part of the letter out of context by assuming all of the exhibit images are for the same purpose. Exhibit C is there to highlight consumer confusion caused by the issue -- which is relevant to a trademark dispute, because if there's no confusion there's usually no problem in the eyes of the law. They are not claiming that random internet posts means the company is officially using the name, but that posts like that are evidence of widespread consumer confusion in differentiating the brands.
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#8Automattic has had the trademark for a little under a decade. WP Engine has existed since 2010. The argument for the trademark has been lost. If you don't actively crack down on usages of your trademark, you can't arbitrarily decide to enforce it in the future. Especially not against a company allegedly making hundreds of millions in revenue from your trademark: you've had to actively ignore its use for a decade . Th…
> Highlighting Reddit and Twitter posts calling WPE "WordPress engine" is nonsense. You are taking this part of the letter out of context by assuming all of the exhibit images are for the same purpose. Exhibit C is there to highlight consumer confusion caused by the issue -- which is relevant to a trademark dispute, because if there's no confusion there's usually no problem in the eyes of the law. They are not claimi…
You don't get to say "go ahead and use it," wait a decade, and then grumble that people are "confused". But even then, some random reddit or content farm post doesn't rise to the level of demonstrating "widespread consumer confusion". Hell, that content farm post looks generated by ChatGPT, should a hallucination be admissable as evidence of "confusion"?
Had Automattic cared at all eight or nine years ago, they might have a case. But saying that a few random people on the Internet got it wrong (maybe even because some random content farm posted nonsense) after ignoring the issue for so long is decidedly nonsense.
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Highlighting Reddit and Twitter posts calling WPE "WordPress engine" is nonsense. You are taking this part of the letter out of context by assuming all of the exhibit images are for the same purpose. Exhibit C is there to highlight consumer confusion caused by the issue -- which is relevant to a trademark dispute, because if there's no confusion there's usually no problem in the eyes of the law. They are not claimi…
You don't get to say "go ahead and use it," wait a decade, and then grumble that people are "confused". But even then, some random reddit or content farm post doesn't rise to the level of demonstrating "widespread consumer confusion". Hell, that content farm post looks generated by ChatGPT, should a hallucination be admissable as evidence of "confusion"? Had Automattic cared at all eight or nine years ago, they might…
The surrounding context explains that there are hundreds more, and consumer surveying to back up the claim:
> A few of the hundreds of examples of actual confusion are attached as Exhibit C. Moreover, an objective empirical survey by a leading professional survey expert indicates that a significant degree of marketplace confusion is caused by your infringing use of the WORDPRESS and WOOCOMMERCE trademarks.
---
> they might have a case
To be clear, I don't believe they have a case, I wasn't commenting with the intention of saying that. They only have a cease and desist letter at the moment. There is no admissing of evidence at this point, there are only letters.
If there were a case, there's probably a good chance they will lose due to what you describe -- unenforced trademarks.
Re: Automattic has sent a cease and desist to WP Engine
#10Why do otherwise smart people start feuds like this? I think that most people on HN would agree that 1) the most likely outcome of this feud is negative for Automattic and 2) Matt should have reasonably known that from the start. Is it some consequence of a passionate founder having the influence to choose emotions over business sense?
My guess: Most people are motivated by money and power. Matt probably has enough money and judging by the fact he's still running Automattic, he clearly loves to have power. But now a big VC is investing in WP Engine and he's afraid he'll lose control over the direction of Wordpress.