"She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
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Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#2> "Since the octopus was not reacting to any existing threat, but rather in anticipation of one, it had demonstrated foresight and planning."
The journalist is hopefully misunderstanding a more correct explanation by the scientists. That most certainly isn't demonstration of foresight and planning. Nature is perfectly capable of encoding that sort of information as an instinctual response. Something like [trying to sleep] -> [get distressed by exposure to open ocean].
It is like how humans feel cold and put on a jumper. It isn't a demonstration that we all understand heat flow equations and have modelled out that we need to consume less food if we put another layer between us and the outside world, increasing the long term economics of our survival, demonstrating an advanced knowledge of thermodynamics and economics. Our body has encoded "heat leaking through skin" -> "feel uncomfortable" into our senses and that is all we need to respond to without considering the consequences of the response.
Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#3> "Since the octopus was not reacting to any existing threat, but rather in anticipation of one, it had demonstrated foresight and planning." The journalist is hopefully misunderstanding a more correct explanation by the scientists. That most certainly isn't demonstration of foresight and planning. Nature is perfectly capable of encoding that sort of information as an instinctual response. Something like [trying to s…
It sounds like you would prefer evidence of something like Kahneman’s System II as evidence of high intelligence? That is, an abstract general purpose thinking system, even if it is slower and in many ways weaker than the instinctive/trained/evolved systems for solving specific problems?
Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#4> "Since the octopus was not reacting to any existing threat, but rather in anticipation of one, it had demonstrated foresight and planning." The journalist is hopefully misunderstanding a more correct explanation by the scientists. That most certainly isn't demonstration of foresight and planning. Nature is perfectly capable of encoding that sort of information as an instinctual response. Something like [trying to s…
It sounds like you would prefer evidence of something like Kahneman’s System II as evidence of high intelligence? That is, an abstract general purpose thinking system, even if it is slower and in many ways weaker than the instinctive/trained/evolved systems for solving specific problems?
I preferred the bottle-bouncing behaviour. It seems unlikely that nature encoded that one as an instinct - or if it did, it is an adaptive enough instinct to be intelligence for me.
It just happens that the leading example was not correct. That sort of thing turns up all the time in creatures that are effectively thoughtless automatons.
Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#5Earlier quoted context omitted.
It sounds like you would prefer evidence of something like Kahneman’s System II as evidence of high intelligence? That is, an abstract general purpose thinking system, even if it is slower and in many ways weaker than the instinctive/trained/evolved systems for solving specific problems?
I preferred the bottle-bouncing behaviour. It seems unlikely that nature encoded that one as an instinct - or if it did, it is an adaptive enough instinct to be intelligence for me. It just happens that the leading example was not correct. That sort of thing turns up all the time in creatures that are effectively thoughtless automatons.
Thankful this hasen't happend to you and me yet. Fascinating article
Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#6Earlier quoted context omitted.
It sounds like you would prefer evidence of something like Kahneman’s System II as evidence of high intelligence? That is, an abstract general purpose thinking system, even if it is slower and in many ways weaker than the instinctive/trained/evolved systems for solving specific problems?
I preferred the bottle-bouncing behaviour. It seems unlikely that nature encoded that one as an instinct - or if it did, it is an adaptive enough instinct to be intelligence for me. It just happens that the leading example was not correct. That sort of thing turns up all the time in creatures that are effectively thoughtless automatons.
It’s a bit off topic I’m not sure behaviour being “instinctive” means it’s thoughtless (whatever that means).
For example, being uncomfortable might be an instinctive response to being cold, but it’s hardly thoughtless. Some people choose to swim in icy water as a form of recreation. Some sit outside on a cool night and enjoy the crisp air. We write songs and poetry about the deep frost. It means something to us.
I know our nervous systems are far more complex than eg: a bivalve mollusc, who are probably not composing poetry about the sensation they get that makes them close their shell.
I don’t really disagree with you about the observed behaviours in TFA, but I do always feel weird when I hear any living thing called effectively a thoughtless automaton.
Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#7Here we go again anthropomorphizing creatures that live 1-2 years by misrepresenting data for clicks.
Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#8Here we go again anthropomorphizing creatures that live 1-2 years by misrepresenting data for clicks.
I know that you're correct to generalize most octopuses living for that timeframe but I was very interested to learn of this one brooding for four years: https://www.mbari.org/news/deep-sea-octopus-broods-eggs-for-...
Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#9Here we go again anthropomorphizing creatures that live 1-2 years by misrepresenting data for clicks.
Octopuses are crazy smart and theres tons of evidence for it; not sure where this comment comes from even if the article is mediocre.
Re: "She's bouncing the ball" – the uncanny way octopuses play
#10> "Since the octopus was not reacting to any existing threat, but rather in anticipation of one, it had demonstrated foresight and planning." The journalist is hopefully misunderstanding a more correct explanation by the scientists. That most certainly isn't demonstration of foresight and planning. Nature is perfectly capable of encoding that sort of information as an instinctual response. Something like [trying to s…
Agreed. This is like building a little den out of nearby objects, which seems to be at sub-mammal levels? Even birds that didn’t get the best grades do this.
They picked an extremely mediocre example by octopus standards. Play is more interesting but this happens with primitive mammals as well, like squirrels and such. And fish, btw.
It feels like pop-sci journalism is always assuming animal behavior is orders of magnitude less sophisticated[1] than what is obvious from having pets, watching a basic nature doc, or just observing wildlife for a tiny bit.
[1]: I tend to avoid words like intelligence etc both because they’re ambiguous as hell, and because people jump to anthropomorphization, backwards-rationalizing etc, in exactly the fashion you mention.