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The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

admiralcloudberg.medium.com

1–10 of 33 posts

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#2
Admiral Cloudberg (Kyra Dempsey) writes detailed, thoughtful analyses of airline disasters. In many cases, subsequent improvements have made a disaster type unlikely to recur. This one (the suicide/mass murder of Andreas Lubitz on Germanwings flight 9525) is an exception, and the article makes a strong case that significant changes are needed but are not being pursued. The archive is full of fascinating, riveting accounts of what happened, why, and how for many different tragedies.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#3

Admiral Cloudberg (Kyra Dempsey) writes detailed, thoughtful analyses of airline disasters. In many cases, subsequent improvements have made a disaster type unlikely to recur. This one (the suicide/mass murder of Andreas Lubitz on Germanwings flight 9525) is an exception, and the article makes a strong case that significant changes are needed but are not being pursued. The archive is full of fascinating, riveting acc…

I do enjoy Admiral Cloudberg’s work!

> In the aftermath of the crash, experts proposed various measures intended to reduce the risk of pilot suicide, including a rule that there must be two crewmembers in the cockpit at all times. …] Shortly after the crash of flight 9525, the European Aviation Safety Agency began encouraging the policy in Europe in order to gather data about its effectiveness, but after the trial period was over, the results were not encouraging. […] the policy leaves the cockpit door open for longer periods of time, increasing the risk of hijackings, which historically have been much more common than pilot suicides anyway.

This seems to be the crux of the matter.

I’ve seen it argued that the only sensible post-9/11 security measure was reinforcing the cockpit door. Extra screenings, shoes off, no liquids - all this seems secondary at best, security theatre at worst, when compared to denying an adversary control of an airplane.

Having said that, I’ve also heard the theory advanced that even a reinforced door isn’t needed: passengers mental models have shifted from compliance to active resistance, and 9/11 may be impossible to repeat as a result.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#4
I briefly held a student pilots license, issued my exemption, due to kidney stones. I have suffered from depression for years and was extremely reluctant to seek treatment because I knew it would be detrimental to flying.

My primary care doctor had me try lexapro in 2018 and even though I hadn't flown in 2 years I protested but reluctantly agreed I needed to do something and it was unlikely I would ever fly as a private pilot for many factors and should go on with treatment.

I know for a fact pilots hide all kinds of medical issues. I had a doctor that worked with delta pilots and argued my case with the FAA (a formality more than anything) and he along with everyone at flight school advocated for keeping my kidney stones to myself and not disclosing it in the first place.

The system needs some work. I have first hand experience with it without my livelihood being on the line and its easy to imagine why pilots hide issues.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#5
Great article, but unfortunately the lying is entrenched culturally. The regulator is so distrusted it can never change.

For example in Australia I’ve heard multiple cases of somebody proactively seeking counselling for help dealing with temporarily stressful situations such as divorce, then being grounded at work, and the regulator (CASA) denying medical clearances. This increases the stress.

Every time some senior person proclaims “it’s okay this time - report your illnesses”, it never is, and we go around this circle again and again. I will personally never report my medical history accurately to the regulator.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#6

Great article, but unfortunately the lying is entrenched culturally. The regulator is so distrusted it can never change. For example in Australia I’ve heard multiple cases of somebody proactively seeking counselling for help dealing with temporarily stressful situations such as divorce, then being grounded at work, and the regulator (CASA) denying medical clearances. This increases the stress. Every time some senior…

It can change. The regulator could start doing positive examples of temporary grounding and supporting the pilot. There are all kind of active actions the regulator could take that would change things over a few decades.

But first the regulator need to take action and keep doing it.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#7

Admiral Cloudberg (Kyra Dempsey) writes detailed, thoughtful analyses of airline disasters. In many cases, subsequent improvements have made a disaster type unlikely to recur. This one (the suicide/mass murder of Andreas Lubitz on Germanwings flight 9525) is an exception, and the article makes a strong case that significant changes are needed but are not being pursued. The archive is full of fascinating, riveting acc…

I do enjoy Admiral Cloudberg’s work! > In the aftermath of the crash, experts proposed various measures intended to reduce the risk of pilot suicide, including a rule that there must be two crewmembers in the cockpit at all times. …] Shortly after the crash of flight 9525, the European Aviation Safety Agency began encouraging the policy in Europe in order to gather data about its effectiveness, but after the trial pe…

If this is the crux of the matter you took away from this, you probably missed the point by a lot...

Can i recommend a rereading of the last 3 part, the one about medical conditions killing pilots careers and how it incentivise them to hide a lot of conditions?

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#8
Sounds like an ethics problem more than a regulatory system problem. The long term solution is not reducing the incentive to lie, it's better and more extensive moral education to increase personal reluctance to lie. Why is that the better solution? Because it has profound benefits that extend far beyond this specific scenario / industry.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#9

Great article, but unfortunately the lying is entrenched culturally. The regulator is so distrusted it can never change. For example in Australia I’ve heard multiple cases of somebody proactively seeking counselling for help dealing with temporarily stressful situations such as divorce, then being grounded at work, and the regulator (CASA) denying medical clearances. This increases the stress. Every time some senior…

This sounds like learned helplessness. Of course there is something they can do. There are a lot of things they can do to become better.

The medical profession is almost unrecognizable from what it was in the 1950s. My grandfather (MD) said as much 15 years ago before passing away. It has only changed more since then. The FAA’s policies are based on 1950s medical knowledge and opinions.

If you spend any significant time in online aviation circles, medical issues come up daily. People who had a diagnosis of ADHD as a kid (when getting diagnosed with it was all the rage) have to jump through insane hoops if they disclose that on their FAA medical. Meanwhile, existing pilots often avoid going to a doctor or seeking help when they need it because of the possibility of losing their source of income, temporarily or maybe even permanently.

So, in many situations, instead of having healthy pilots, we have unhealthy pilots. The policy sometimes has the complete opposite effect of its intended purpose.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#10
Some of the most commonly prescribed antidepression medications can in certain populations actually increase the risk of suicide.

In addition, if you look at the mass killings that have made the news, it seems that most of not all of them were on some type of antidepressant.

There may be a link that is worth exploring further, but there are some very strong interests that would be opposed.

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