Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
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Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
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Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#2I’m guessing this is a followup to the recent HN post http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3289750, on how women not negotiating caused them to have lower salaries than men.
Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#3I think men in general just prefer more submissive women.
Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#4I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help.
In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as well.
Part of the problem is that a lot of well-meaning individuals just don't believe this is actually happening. I can see how they might think that if they had never been in a position of having it happen to them. If you find yourself doubting this happens, do this: ask ten women you know if they had ever negotiated for something, and what happened when they did. Then draw your own conclusions.
Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#5I think men in general just prefer more submissive women.
I don't know about submissive, but maybe.
Regardless, patriarchy still exists in many (often subtle(r) or more latent) ways. The original article is proof that it existed, and this just goes to show that there are directly observable reasons for it occurring. It shouldn't surprise people, despite the number of "well they should just ask" comments on the last article posted here.
Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#6I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…
Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases), been accused of blackmail (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when they offer you a vacation and you ask for a raise), accused of lowering employee moral (thanks for turning down my request for a raise, I decided to become a team player and get my team raises, sorry that cost you three times what i was asking for), etc. All because I was a programmer who wanted money instead of free sodas, and worthless stock options. I could ask tough questions about stock option grants, as well as speak convincingly to other employees about the pay structure and the EV of the options. When they give you some BS about the stock being worth X ask them about liquidity events. Yeah, it's great that you want to turn this biz into a billion dollar company but when that horizon is after the options expire it means the options are worthless. (It's best to ask these questions on separate occasions so the CEO is unaware of the play)
As a college dropout I sure don't 'know my place' and I really don't care to take the place society has designated my class. Sure, some people think I'm self-centered but fundamentally you go to work to earn money. If the team can't make sacrifices for me then I don't care to make sacrifices for it. As an employee I invest my time, and I expect a liquidity preference, just like the company's VCs do. A VC can always get their money back from some other source, I can never get my time back.
In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me!
Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#7To summarize the article: for some reason, the society is more willing to tolerate "pushiness" in males than in females. Why is that the case? Any ideas? (Other than "because it's always been like that...").
Not to bring down everything to sexuality, but a sexually pushy woman would be typically labeled a "slut." Which is why a woman will almost never ask a man out.
Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#8I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…
Were you able to practice your delivery on some colleagues in the business? Because the way we communicate negotiation strikes me as absolutely crucial in not coming of as aggressive. Not that I don't believe you when you say that there's a double standard wrt the kind of negotiation behavior is accepted from men and women.
Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#9Was discussing the origin article with my wife last night. One theory we had was that men actually negotiate and put a higher value on money in order to attract women. Perhaps men ask for more money at jobs because women value men with a high salary more than they value making money themselves.. :)
Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate
#10To summarize the article: for some reason, the society is more willing to tolerate "pushiness" in males than in females. Why is that the case? Any ideas? (Other than "because it's always been like that..."). Not to bring down everything to sexuality, but a sexually pushy woman would be typically labeled a "slut." Which is why a woman will almost never ask a man out.
Could the analogy be extended to give some clues on how to get a better deal without violating for-whatever-reason-ingrained reactions?
The standard advice for a single woman is not to ask men out on dates, but to "get yourself out there." What would the analogous behavior look like from a potential employee? Conferences? Blogging? Fine-tuning of resume?