‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
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Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#2I think what happens is more funding comes from the private sector. It's just where the money and momentum are. MIT feels more "industry" oriented every term. That old spirit of intellectual tinkering for its own sake seems to be fading away.
Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#3A naturalized US citizen doing research with federal funding, especially from DoD and DARPA, has no business participating in conversations with PRC officials while using "we" and "our" to refer to China and its ambitions in the technology sectors for which they have received federal funding.
The complete obfuscation of the facts by NYT is farcical.
https://www.wwlp.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/26/2021/01/Che...
Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#4Of course, this much has been suspected since the initial indictment (from https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/26/us/mit-scientist-charges.... )
> There were two counts of wire fraud related to disclosure. In 2017, prosecutors said, when applying for a $2.7 million grant from the Energy Department, Dr. Chen had failed to disclose five affiliations — he served as a “review expert” for China’s National Science Foundation and a “fourth overseas expert consultant” to the Chinese government, for instance. Then, in a progress report in 2019, he failed to list those and three new Chinese affiliations, including one that pledged to pay him $355,715, the indictment says.
> A third and fourth charge were more straightforward: Dr. Chen had failed in 2018 tax filings, the indictment says, to declare a Chinese bank account containing more than $10,000, as required by law.
> [the prosecutor] acknowledged that Dr. Chen was not accused of passing any sensitive information to China
Serving as a review expert? A consultant? Not reporting a Chinese bank account in his taxes? The prosecutor went so far as to paint him as loyal to China based on these! From the above article:
> At a news conference that morning, [the prosecutor] said he believed that Dr. Chen, 56, who became a naturalized U.S. citizen two decades ago, had remained loyal to the country of his birth.
> “The allegations of the complaint imply that this was not just about greed, but about loyalty to China,” he said.
This was a case of guilt by association. Dr Chen did nothing wrong but by god, he’s a Chinese immigrant with a Chinese bank account, and scientific colleagues who are Chinese, so he must be a Chinese spy
Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#5It is stated in the piece, but not emphasized enough: the charges were dropped on the basis of legal technicality regarding mandatory disclosure, not because he wasn't actually hiding associations with known state or state-affiliated actors in mainland China. He was. Expect mandatory disclosure laws to change as a result of this case. Based on his PRC affiliations supported by mountains of evidence in the criminal co…
Charges can only exist on the basis of legal technicality. That’s how law works.
What you are describing is guilt by association with China. It is not illegal to work to promote scientific collaboration with China. It is not illegal to participate in advancing Chinese scientific interests. Some people might consider these things immoral. Some people might not.
Clearly the prosecutor felt as you do, that because Dr Chen’s work involved advancing Chinese scientific interests, he must be some kind of spy or traitor. If you remove the preconception of guilt by association with China, you might realize it’s possible to want to do science, even science funded by a foreign country and advancing that countries interests, and not automatically be some kind of traitor or spy.
Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#6It is stated in the piece, but not emphasized enough: the charges were dropped on the basis of legal technicality regarding mandatory disclosure, not because he wasn't actually hiding associations with known state or state-affiliated actors in mainland China. He was. Expect mandatory disclosure laws to change as a result of this case. Based on his PRC affiliations supported by mountains of evidence in the criminal co…
> the charges were dropped on the basis of legal technicality Charges can only exist on the basis of legal technicality. That’s how law works. What you are describing is guilt by association with China. It is not illegal to work to promote scientific collaboration with China. It is not illegal to participate in advancing Chinese scientific interests. Some people might consider these things immoral. Some people might…
Don't be coy, you know exactly what I mean. If you get away with, for example, sexual crimes like Cosby due to legal technicalities, it doesn't mean you aren't guilty or weren't malicious.
The NYT piece tries to pretend that Chen was not doing anything at all worth scrutinizing. He clearly was, just in a way different than the initial charges cover - mandatory disclosure.
>What you are describing is guilt by association with China
No, what I'm describing is secretive collaboration with an adversarial government on research funded by the US federal government for the express purpose of advancing the interests of that adversarial government, which is exactly what happened. Read the quotes from his communications in the criminal complaint.
Like I said, time will tell if further charges are brought.
Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#7Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the charges were dropped on the basis of legal technicality Charges can only exist on the basis of legal technicality. That’s how law works. What you are describing is guilt by association with China. It is not illegal to work to promote scientific collaboration with China. It is not illegal to participate in advancing Chinese scientific interests. Some people might consider these things immoral. Some people might…
>Charges can only exist on the basis of legal technicality. That’s how law works. Don't be coy, you know exactly what I mean. If you get away with, for example, sexual crimes like Cosby due to legal technicalities, it doesn't mean you aren't guilty or weren't malicious. The NYT piece tries to pretend that Chen was not doing anything at all worth scrutinizing. He clearly was, just in a way different than the initial c…
It’s clear Dr. Chen does not consider China to be an adversarial government. Believe it or not, many idealistic people believe in a collaborative future, and unless Dr Chen’s work is classified or military in nature I don’t see a reason to assume anything but the best.
Similarly, he may have committed a crime like espionage but I don’t see any reason to assume this is true unless the government can bring forth evidence supporting that. Such evidence has not materialized yet.
If I study forestry and collaborate with the Canadian government, am I betraying the United States by helping a competing economic power get ahead in forestry? Ultimately, these sort of arguments always rely on moral absolutionism that China is Bad Always. Not everyone agrees with this.
Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Charges can only exist on the basis of legal technicality. That’s how law works. Don't be coy, you know exactly what I mean. If you get away with, for example, sexual crimes like Cosby due to legal technicalities, it doesn't mean you aren't guilty or weren't malicious. The NYT piece tries to pretend that Chen was not doing anything at all worth scrutinizing. He clearly was, just in a way different than the initial c…
I’ve skimmed the original filing including the quote from his emails on bullet 19. It’s clear Dr. Chen does not consider China to be an adversarial government. Believe it or not, many idealistic people believe in a collaborative future, and unless Dr Chen’s work is classified or military in nature I don’t see a reason to assume anything but the best. Similarly, he may have committed a crime like espionage but I don’t…
Then he shouldn't be doing research funded by DoD and DARPA, and certainly shouldn't be sharing it with the CCP. You've literally made my point for me.
>Dr Chen’s work is classified or military
DoD and DARPA research are military in nature by definition. Most DoE research, along with the former two, are ITAR restricted as well.
>If I study forestry and collaborate with the Canadian government, am I betraying the United States by helping a competing economic power get ahead in forestry?
Massive false equivalence between China and Canada. China is not merely a "competing economic power". It is not up to Chen to decide who is an approved cooperative partner based on his personal feelings.
>Not everyone agrees with this.
You can disagree with an objective fact all you want, it doesn't make it any less of an objective fact. The CCP is evil and malicious.
Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’ve skimmed the original filing including the quote from his emails on bullet 19. It’s clear Dr. Chen does not consider China to be an adversarial government. Believe it or not, many idealistic people believe in a collaborative future, and unless Dr Chen’s work is classified or military in nature I don’t see a reason to assume anything but the best. Similarly, he may have committed a crime like espionage but I don’t…
>It’s clear Dr. Chen does not consider China to be an adversarial government Then he shouldn't be doing research funded by DoD and DARPA, and certainly shouldn't be sharing it with the CCP. You've literally made my point for me. >Dr Chen’s work is classified or military DoD and DARPA research are military in nature by definition. Most DoE research, along with the former two, are ITAR restricted as well. >If I study f…
My point is just that in this situation, the point of the law is to disambiguate where your personal liberties as someone who might feel positive towards China end, and your collective responsibility towards your country begin.
Feeling friendly to China isn’t illegal or immoral. Helping China in a way that your government forbids, be it for national security or otherwise, is illegal and probably immoral.
If Chen did not break the law, then he did not betray the moral guidelines outlined through law. Unless you want to claim that the spirit of the law was that he should disclose more than legally required to disclose.
Claiming anything more than this just sounds like virtue signaling.
Re: ‘In the End, You’re Treated Like a Spy,’ Says MIT Scientist
#10It is stated in the piece, but not emphasized enough: the charges were dropped on the basis of legal technicality regarding mandatory disclosure, not because he wasn't actually hiding associations with known state or state-affiliated actors in mainland China. He was. Expect mandatory disclosure laws to change as a result of this case. Based on his PRC affiliations supported by mountains of evidence in the criminal co…
> the charges were dropped on the basis of legal technicality Charges can only exist on the basis of legal technicality. That’s how law works. What you are describing is guilt by association with China. It is not illegal to work to promote scientific collaboration with China. It is not illegal to participate in advancing Chinese scientific interests. Some people might consider these things immoral. Some people might…
Perhaps it should be.