Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#1

Post by arrayjumper » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

Hi HN, maybe it's just the bubble I'm in but these days I see a lot of discussion around "no-code" and the "no-code" movement. There's also a bunch of new no-code apps being launched every day - https://www.producthunt.com/topics/no-code#order=trending.

Some seem to supplement developers (eg: retool) and some empower non-engineers to be able to build websites/apps/integrations without necessarily having a developer in the loop (eg: shopify/zapier/airtable).

What do you think about this movement? Clearly these apps/platforms enable non-developers to solve a bunch of problems which would otherwise need a software engineer. Is this a paradigm shift?

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#2

Post by gennarro » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

I've been pretty unimpressed with the results to be honest. There has been a lot of hype around businesses that have little value-add and lots of great marketing.

I love the concept -- quickly spin up an MVP, etc -- but when so much of success lies on execution and so many good ideas need time to be perfected before they commercially viable spinning up things very quickly isn't always the best.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#3

Post by Jugurtha » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

I don't.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#4

Post by readme » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

the shift already happened -- the shift is that software ate all the CRUD business processes that could possibly exist

if you want to build something cool now it had better do more than update a database

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#5

Post by rozenmd » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

From what I've seen close-up in the indiehacker community, it's shifted the goal-posts of what an MVP is.

You used to be able to get away with a landing page with just a form to collect email addresses - now you need a hell of a lot more polish to get started.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#6

Post by tablespoon » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

> Is this a paradigm shift?

No. IIRC, companies have been hyping stuff like this for literally 40 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_One_(software)

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#7

Post by omarhaneef » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

readme wrote: post #4

the shift already happened -- the shift is that software ate all the CRUD business processes that could possibly exist if you want to build something cool now it had better do more than update a database

I mostly agree, but I suspect not all CRUD businesses have been eaten. The ones that have been eaten have the following property:

-- You have to enter the information in yourself, or your equipment currently captures it for you

There are still CRUD opportunities where you find, capture and enter the information on behalf of the user. The phone captures a lot of data, so all that is already CRUDed up, but if you had novel data -- say from a wearable device -- you could still produce a new CRUD for that.

I think this is why hardware is hot again. It allows us to automatically capture new data that isn't already captured by the phone.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#8

Post by sparsely » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

It's vastly better than previous iterations on the same idea. Some (e.g. Airtable) are much better than others, perhaps because they have a clearer niche. Others are useful but drive you straight into a swamp called Technical Debt (retool). I don't think they represent a paradigm shift, more an iterative improvement on existing tools.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#9

Post by fitzn » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

I do think it's a major shift but not in a mutually exclusive way, and maybe not a "paradigm" shift. I think initially, no-code tools were touted as being for non-developers. But now there is a realization that no-code tools are more like "automation" for completing a task. In that mindset, anyone (developer or not) can benefit from using them since it can be/should be/is more efficient. To the extent that no-code tools let a non-developer build and test an end-to-end app as their business, I think that's rare today but I would say we're on our way towards it.

I liken the no-code movement to the introduction of a higher-level programming language. For certain tasks, the higher-level language is more than adequate and a developer (or user) who knows nothing about OSes, file systems or networking, can build an application and probably create value and make money. But the higher-level language doesn't replace the lower-level language overnight, and for certain tasks it'll never replace it.

To use the example you mentioned, if you just want to display a webpage for your co-workers that lets them filter a SQL table, it might take you a few minutes to build that in Retool. If there is a class of such webpages or webapps that could make you money, then it's easy to see Retool as a new higher-level language for building those types of apps.

So, my view is that it's not a paradigm shift for building software, but rather the next step on an evolution towards a more automated process of building software.

Disclosure: I founded a no-code web testing app https://reflect.run

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#10

Post by jerf » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 3:30 PM UTC

It's interesting, but always calibrate their claims against the fact this is about the tenth time this movement has come around. This movement literally goes back to COBOL. That is not a typo. It's not only likely older than you are, but probably much older than you are.

I recognize COBOL may not seem like "no-code", but that's just because "no-code" is a stupid label. "No-code" doesn't mean "no code" just like "serverless" still runs on a server.

I would say the main problem with the no-code hype is the idea that it is a leader. It is not. It is a follower. "Normal" code goes out, hammers things out over the course of literally decades, and then, when it has finally settled what the best couple of ways to do something is, it's finally time for the "no code" solutions to come in and systematize that for a larger audience. Nothing wrong with that. Power to the people and all that.

It just goes wrong when no-code advocates put the cart in front of the horse and make grandiose claims about replacing all developers or something. That's not the direction the stream flows in. No-code can't operate without the "normal" developers doing immense amounts of work charting the territory and building the infrastructure to get there. There is no chance of them displacing "normal" software developers; they are structurally incapable of it. Woe unto the no-code startup that doesn't understanding this dynamic, and foolishly tries.