63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
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Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#2People who do not need cars or who have access to an alternative to ICE don't have a problem. Obviously.
The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work, and especially who rely on vans for work. There must be viable alternative to ICE vehicles for these people, otherwise hitting diesel (or petrol) vehicles can have the consequences seen for instance in France with the "Yellow vests".
Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#3People who do not need cars or who have access to an alternative to ICE don't have a problem. Obviously. The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work, and especially who rely on vans for work. There must be viable alternative to ICE vehicles for these people, otherwise hitting diesel (or petrol) vehicles can have the consequences seen for instance in France with the "Yellow vests".
Title is a bit misleading:
"Almost two-thirds of Europe’s city dwellers support a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars after 2030, according to a new YouGov poll."
I imagine electric vehicles are better suited to European cities than most places thanks to higher population density, so electric vans and the like will be just fine in the vast majority of cases.
Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#4People who do not need cars or who have access to an alternative to ICE don't have a problem. Obviously. The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work, and especially who rely on vans for work. There must be viable alternative to ICE vehicles for these people, otherwise hitting diesel (or petrol) vehicles can have the consequences seen for instance in France with the "Yellow vests".
Title is a bit misleading: "Almost two-thirds of Europe’s city dwellers support a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars after 2030, according to a new YouGov poll." I imagine electric vehicles are better suited to European cities than most places thanks to higher population density, so electric vans and the like will be just fine in the vast majority of cases.
That's because they have access to alternatives, which are currently best suited for towns only, or don't need cars. The title is not misleading. Still, I am not aware of any viable electric van on the market at the moment (I think Ford is releasing a hybrid Transit but that's as good as it currently gets as far as I know). People who rely on cars and vans may want to see affordable alternatives on the market before supporting an outright ban on ICE.
Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#5Earlier quoted context omitted.
Title is a bit misleading: "Almost two-thirds of Europe’s city dwellers support a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars after 2030, according to a new YouGov poll." I imagine electric vehicles are better suited to European cities than most places thanks to higher population density, so electric vans and the like will be just fine in the vast majority of cases.
That's because they have access to alternatives, which are currently best suited for towns only, or don't need cars. The title is not misleading. Still, I am not aware of any viable electric van on the market at the moment (I think Ford is releasing a hybrid Transit but that's as good as it currently gets as far as I know). People who rely on cars and vans may want to see affordable alternatives on the market before…
From a quick search the 2018 Nissan e-NV200 has a range of 174 miles which I would hazard guess is more than enough range for most tradesmen daily runs (for European Geography, the range is probably not distance friendly for US/Canada sort of scenario).
Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#6People who do not need cars or who have access to an alternative to ICE don't have a problem. Obviously. The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work, and especially who rely on vans for work. There must be viable alternative to ICE vehicles for these people, otherwise hitting diesel (or petrol) vehicles can have the consequences seen for instance in France with the "Yellow vests".
Surely there is some compromise.
Diesel is far worse than petrol for local pollution for example. So let's ban diesel in the city, then as electric becomes more viable, we can finally ban petrol as well.
We shouldn't have sympathy for things that actively harm people's health. Society shouldn't favor an individual over the harm they do to many more people. A white diesel van driving around all day, idling in front of schools and parks, has significant negative impact on others.
It's similar to how coal fueled power plants used to exist in the middle of dense cities. Coal worker unions objected to them being closed down, but the health interests of millions of residents fortunately prevailed in most cases.
Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#7People who do not need cars or who have access to an alternative to ICE don't have a problem. Obviously. The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work, and especially who rely on vans for work. There must be viable alternative to ICE vehicles for these people, otherwise hitting diesel (or petrol) vehicles can have the consequences seen for instance in France with the "Yellow vests".
Surely there is some compromise. Diesel is far worse than petrol for local pollution for example. So let's ban diesel in the city, then as electric becomes more viable, we can finally ban petrol as well. We shouldn't have sympathy for things that actively harm people's health. Society shouldn't favor an individual over the harm they do to many more people. A white diesel van driving around all day, idling in front of…
> We shouldn't have sympathy for things that actively harm people's health.
This is besides the point and no-one has suggested that.
Politically, economically, and socially, we cannot take livelihoods away from people. If ICE vehicles are no longer acceptable then there has to be a viable alternative for everyone, not only for city-dwellers or people who don't need cars/vans.
I mentioned the yellow vests in France because the protests were triggered by exactly this lack of consideration for people who live outside of central Paris: The government wanted to slap extra taxes on petrol and diesel (which are already heavily taxed) without any way around them for people who currently have no choice.
Some countries, e.g. the UK, have already said they'll ban new ICE vehicles from 2030, so we're hopefully going to see a drastic change in manufacturers' offering but governments have also to plan and ensure that affordable alternatives hit the market by then in order to avoid both economic disruption and social unrest (which both come with a significant political price).
That's indeed the compromise I suggested in my previous comment.
Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#8The title is inexact at best, intentionally misleading at worst.
Some countries are sampled more than others: 1. UK - 2 cities 2. France - 2 cities 3. Germany - 2 cities 4. Italy - 2 cities 5. Spain - 2 cities 6. Poland - 2 cities 7. Belgium - 2 cities 8. Hungary - 1 cities
Other European countries(either from EU, or outside) are not mentioned. EU has 27 member countries, Europe has 50 countries according to Wikipedia has 50 countries.
Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#9People who do not need cars or who have access to an alternative to ICE don't have a problem. Obviously. The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work, and especially who rely on vans for work. There must be viable alternative to ICE vehicles for these people, otherwise hitting diesel (or petrol) vehicles can have the consequences seen for instance in France with the "Yellow vests".
> The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work
Sooo sure. But the only reason most people need cars for work is because we just build car-friendly infrastructure and then all of a sudden we need cars.
Imagine if we just built mixed-use walkable neighborhoods and towns of medium density. Why would we need cars? Or at least why would we need so many?
It’s different in Europe to some extent, at least, since many Europeans have access to alternatives.
I read lots of comments like this that think the problem is centered around the cars. But the cars are the problem that need to be optimized away. We need subtractive thinking, not more more more. “How will they use their cars?” Should be more like “why would they need cars?”
Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars
#10Climatist extremists who employ legislative acts as weapons of mass destruction