Live data from Hacker News

The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

cs.utexas.edu

1–10 of 37 posts

Re: The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

#2
This isn't exclusive to the Pigeon-hole Principle, either. Many named conjectures are pointlessly used, just because they're named, even when it makes the proof longer.

This isn't just exclusive to mathematics. It's similar to the reason people bring in single-line Node.JS packages; a fear of re-inventing the wheel when they don't actually need a wheel in the first place, or when the wheel is trivial to re-state in a more natural form for the proof / program.

Re: The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

#3
A couple thoughts:

a) The history of mathematics is littered with examples of assumed "obvious" results that turned out to have drastic implications. This is especially true of combinatorics, which was blissfully ignorant to the axiom of choice for so long and now must wrestle with it forever. Strict adherence to some formalism may be justifiably understood, and it's a little shocking to find EWD of all people arguing otherwise for such a pragmatic reason as pedagogical clarity.

b) Comparing 0) and 1) as EWD suggests, the first thing I notice is the sudden appearance of the word "finite" which never appears again in the article (nor in negation; also the inelegant but mostly harmless introduction of "nonempty"). The generalization of the principle to support reals costs it its trivial generalization over infinite bags, which is also often valuable (a classic example being Siegel's lemma).

Re: The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

#5
This note represents a rare misstep by Dijkstra: the pigeonhole principle actually is a special and important principle worthy of a special name of its own. For example:

1. When you formulate the pigeonhole principle in propositional logic, its resolution proofs are exponentially large. Since modern SAT solvers are basically very fancy propositional resolution provers, this gives you a nice way to find hard instances for them. It also makes the question of when propositional proof systems can be more succinct than one another is also a fundamental question in complexity theory.

2. It also arises in geometry: a compactness for metric spaces is essentially the statement that the pigeonhole principle applies to the space.

I don't have a unified perspective of these two facts, but either one of them is really striking. As a result I'm okay with giving the pigeonhole principle its own natural language name.

Re: The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

#6
post #5

This note represents a rare misstep by Dijkstra: the pigeonhole principle actually is a special and important principle worthy of a special name of its own. For example: 1. When you formulate the pigeonhole principle in propositional logic, its resolution proofs are exponentially large. Since modern SAT solvers are basically very fancy propositional resolution provers, this gives you a nice way to find hard instances…

Do you have a reference for 2? Thanks.

Re: The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

#7
post #6
post #5

This note represents a rare misstep by Dijkstra: the pigeonhole principle actually is a special and important principle worthy of a special name of its own. For example: 1. When you formulate the pigeonhole principle in propositional logic, its resolution proofs are exponentially large. Since modern SAT solvers are basically very fancy propositional resolution provers, this gives you a nice way to find hard instances…

Do you have a reference for 2? Thanks.

Willie Wong wrote a nice blog post about this a while ago:

https://williewong.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/compactness-part...

Re: The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

#8
post #4

I feel this is an instance of prof.dr. Edsger W.Dijkstra just being mean. If one works more on pigeon-hole principles you end up with Ramsey Theory, which covers some amazing results.

Yeah, this feel like a comment that might have been OK at a cocktail party or made offhand in the middle of an essay on something else.

Sure, maybe, in some instances, some people, might, perhaps make a little too much out of using the pigeon hole principle. But here, he make too much out of that situation.

Re: The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

#9
post #3

A couple thoughts: a) The history of mathematics is littered with examples of assumed "obvious" results that turned out to have drastic implications. This is especially true of combinatorics, which was blissfully ignorant to the axiom of choice for so long and now must wrestle with it forever. Strict adherence to some formalism may be justifiably understood, and it's a little shocking to find EWD of all people arguin…

[deleted]

Re: The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle (1991)

#10
post #4

I feel this is an instance of prof.dr. Edsger W.Dijkstra just being mean. If one works more on pigeon-hole principles you end up with Ramsey Theory, which covers some amazing results.

It wouldn’t be the only one. Review his archived papers and they’re well salted with snark.
Post reply on HN