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What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

theatlantic.com

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Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#2

Post by TulliusCicero »

> We need to applaud companies like Slack, but know that the nitty-gritty of human services—housing, health care, social support—which lots of nonprofits and public institutions are working on, the private sector has largely turned away from.”

I mean, yeah? Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff that’s the domain of non-profits and the government. Why would we expect Slack or other tech companies to be helping random people with housing or social support?

The private sector does help here, indirectly, with taxes that go to support such programs. And it’s the government that sets the tax rate and decides where revenue goes, not the private sector.

You can blame the government, or the people who voted them in, but blaming Slack and co. is silly. It’s not their job, and it shouldn’t be: you don’t want the institutions with profit motive to be the ones handling charitable works. That’s part of the whole reason we have a government.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#3

Post by kkwak »

Programming generally provides people with a lot of power. Either in access to data or obviously code. In that, there is a lot of trust requested and given. I know lots of enterprises add a lot of "scans" and "checks" and limit things to much complaints to remove the "we trust you" from the equation, but still you can't scan for everything.

The open question is how much trust do you want to give? Of course, 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances are awesome and all - but in reality; as a company with lots to lose. 1. reputationally 2. financially

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#4

Post by AlexanderDhoore »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #2

> We need to applaud companies like Slack, but know that the nitty-gritty of human services—housing, health care, social support—which lots of nonprofits and public institutions are working on, the private sector has largely turned away from.” I mean, yeah? Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff that’s the domain of non-profits and the government. Why would we expect Slack or other tech companies…

You live in Munich. You think like a European. Left or right on the political spectrum, doesn't matter. What you said is generally accepted as "how it works" in Europe. Not so much in other places.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#5

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #2

> We need to applaud companies like Slack, but know that the nitty-gritty of human services—housing, health care, social support—which lots of nonprofits and public institutions are working on, the private sector has largely turned away from.” I mean, yeah? Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff that’s the domain of non-profits and the government. Why would we expect Slack or other tech companies…

Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best interests[1].

The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people are immorally (by my own standards) disadvantaged and with no means or realistic opportunity to better themselves.

So if a private company (or shareholders-forbid: a publicly traded company)’s leadership feels a moral obligation to help those left behind by the state - more power to them.

Until the US truly embraces the “for the people” part of the “by the people, of the people, for the people” part of their unofficial motto it really is up to private entities to make-up the difference.

[1] UPDATE: To clarify - I don't mean that I somehow know what's in someone else's best interests - because I don't - nor their exact reasons for voting for a particular party or candidate - but I mean that it's still possible to _objectively_ say that many people vote for ideological or sentimental reasons that appeal to them (which is part of democracy!) with - or without - having done (for example) a spreadsheet comparisons of how each candidate's manifesto politics would affect their cost of living, quality of living, economic expectations, and so on. I can respect someone voting against their interests for ideological or moral reasons - provided it's done with informed consent. I'm not convinced that most- or even a plurality - of GOP voters in recent US elections sat down and made a spreadsheet and said "yup - I'm okay with rising the cost of my individual health insurance provided it means I have the choice to refuse healthcare coverage" (and that is not a misrepresentation of the ACA and its opponents' stated positions).

So by all means - vote against your own interests - provided you do it with informed consent - otherwise you _really_ are voting against your own interests.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#6

Post by livueta »

kkwak wrote: post #3

Programming generally provides people with a lot of power. Either in access to data or obviously code. In that, there is a lot of trust requested and given. I know lots of enterprises add a lot of "scans" and "checks" and limit things to much complaints to remove the "we trust you" from the equation, but still you can't scan for everything. The open question is how much trust do you want to give? Of course, 2nd, 3rd,…

I feel like if any one person can seriously subvert something, you've already lost. Maybe that's just my perspective from working at international enormous tech corp X, but we've already basically got that problem in the form of employees hailing from repressive states (yeah, Australia, that's you now too) where everything needs cross-signing anyway.

All in all, I'd probably be more concerned about foreign nationals open to various forms of coercion than I would felons - in the general case, anyway. Of course, there are certain environments where more assurance is needed and not employing from either category is reasonable, and the type of criminal background also matters. For instance, someone from a bad neighborhood who got swept up in gang activity like the guy in the article is probably a lot less likely to try to fuck you over than a serious convicted blackhat/fraudster.

It's also possible to, as in the article, explicitly limit their roles to those that don't touch customer data or sensitive product code, where it'd be significantly more sufficient to parlay access into a quick payout. One ironic thing is that's frequently the exact opposite of how it works in practice: think of all the crooked telco CS reps who've been doing SIM swaps recently. Those roles aren't exactly exclusive positions, and I'd argue they're a good example of why paying people crap combined with poor vetting and lots of access is a bad idea.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#7

Post by wayoutthere »

AlexanderDhoore wrote: post #4
TulliusCicero wrote: post #2

> We need to applaud companies like Slack, but know that the nitty-gritty of human services—housing, health care, social support—which lots of nonprofits and public institutions are working on, the private sector has largely turned away from.” I mean, yeah? Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff that’s the domain of non-profits and the government. Why would we expect Slack or other tech companies…

You live in Munich. You think like a European. Left or right on the political spectrum, doesn't matter. What you said is generally accepted as "how it works" in Europe. Not so much in other places.

The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein is an excellent history of how government policy was co-opted by white supremacists in America.

Re: What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code?

#8

Post by pytester »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #2

> We need to applaud companies like Slack, but know that the nitty-gritty of human services—housing, health care, social support—which lots of nonprofits and public institutions are working on, the private sector has largely turned away from.” I mean, yeah? Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff that’s the domain of non-profits and the government. Why would we expect Slack or other tech companies…

>Why would we expect Slack or other tech companies to be helping random people with housing or social support?

Yet they expect congratulations. Slack's selfish commercial interest is entirely aligned with hiring cheap developers, but, they put out a press release and the atlantic magazine took it up.

I worked with a another charity that did a similar thing (not prisoners, but the underprivileged) and one of the companies we got some of them jobs at did the same thing.

The company got some cheap developers, avoided commission on a recruitment agency and then proceeded to issue a press release patting themselves on the back.

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