Translating the Cyberpunk Future
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Translating the Cyberpunk Future
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Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#2Italian here and vouching for the correctness of this. They picked an interesting way to "get out of jail", helped by flexibility in the scenario.
Another solution would have been to use the antiquated and formal "lei", which is gender-neutral, replaces the second person with a third, and technically defaults to feminine even when talking to a male (because it's short for "your person", "la sua persona", which is feminine in Italian) - although in practice this is not always the case and the verb can get gendered arbitrarily. "Voi" can also be used in the same way, but then the following verb is always gendered.
Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#3Something that I'm surprised they didn't mention:
They say that most Italian people would pronounce the schwas by just omitting the last vowel altogether which, if I'm understanding correctly, is the vowel that indicates gender. That itself seems like an appropriate way to communicate "not one gender or the other". It also strikes me as a very believable way for language to evolve.
Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#4>We also analyzed the solutions currently adopted by some activists, like the use of asterisks, “x,” and “u.”
If non-binary people in Italy are already using x's or u's for their pronouns, why not just use that?
Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#5>We also analyzed the solutions currently adopted by some activists, like the use of asterisks, “x,” and “u.” If non-binary people in Italy are already using x's or u's for their pronouns, why not just use that?
FTA:
> I’d seen examples of this on signs before, but it had always seemed to me that asterisks and such were not meant to be a solution, but rather a way to highlight the issue and start a discourse on something that’s deeply ingrained in our language. For our cyberpunk future, we wanted a solution that was more readable and pronounceable [...] Not a perfect solution, perhaps, but eminently plausible in a futuristic cyberpunk setting.
Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#6The title had me excited for a second there... guess I’ll have to go back to my diesel powered crystal ball..
Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#7>We also analyzed the solutions currently adopted by some activists, like the use of asterisks, “x,” and “u.” If non-binary people in Italy are already using x's or u's for their pronouns, why not just use that?
It's not pronounceable and it's not even a standard. Note how they say "some" activists, it's not a settled matter even in activist circles.
Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#8Italian here and vouching for the correctness of this. They picked an interesting way to "get out of jail", helped by flexibility in the scenario. Another solution would have been to use the antiquated and formal "lei", which is gender-neutral, replaces the second person with a third, and technically defaults to feminine even when talking to a male (because it's short for "your person", "la sua persona", which is fem…
I know it would be unfair to ask you to defend the author's writing simply because you speak their language, but I would be grateful if you (or anybody else who speaks Italian) could explain this part of the article for me:
> We also analyzed the solutions currently adopted by some activists, like the use of asterisks, “x,” and “u.”
> Siamo tutt* bellissim* .
> Siamo tuttx bellissimx.
> Siamo tuttu bellissimu.
> I’d seen examples of this on signs before, but it had always seemed to me that asterisks and such were not meant to be a solution, but rather a way to highlight the issue and start a discourse on something that’s deeply ingrained in our language. For our cyberpunk future, we wanted a solution that was more readable and pronounceable, so we thought we might use schwa (ə), the mid central vowel sound.
I get why the * and x are unpronounceable, but what's wrong with the u? As an ignoramus on the subject of the Italian language, "tuttu" and "bellissimu" would have been believable to me as Italian words. They look pronounceable to me. Anybody know what I'm missing?
Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#9>We also analyzed the solutions currently adopted by some activists, like the use of asterisks, “x,” and “u.” If non-binary people in Italy are already using x's or u's for their pronouns, why not just use that?
Most gendered languages have 2 or 3 grammatical genders (masculine, feminine, and sometimes neuter) with gender expressed in nouns, adjectives, pronouns, and verbs. Depending on the language it may not be practically possible to add a new gender (or 20 new genders) due to the sheer number of grammatical forms you must memorize just to handle 2 or 3 genders. These are not trivial changes. In English, learning someone's pronoun might mean learning three words. In another language, it might mean learning literally hundreds of new grammatical rules. Instead of asking 99% of people to conform to the linguistic wishes of less than 1% of people, why not just expect them to find a solution within the existing language?
Re: Translating the Cyberpunk Future
#10[deleted]